A Rose and Orchid

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Dan
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Bought a few more flowers today to see what works, my first rose shot I quite like.

I do find the red in rose is so easy to destroy during processing. Also my sensor needs cleaning...

A Rose by dancook1982, on Flickr
 
Hi Dan,
I do like these shots but they are imo lacking some punch or maybe its just me.
Did you use a flash on these shots ?
Reason I ask is that the exif on your flickr page is not showing.
Have you tried a long exposure for this type of photography ?
 
Hi Dan,
I do like these shots but they are imo lacking some punch or maybe its just me.
Did you use a flash on these shots ?
Reason I ask is that the exif on your flickr page is not showing.
Have you tried a long exposure for this type of photography ?

I didn't use long exposure, and I did use a flash. f32, ISO 100, 1/250th

I will see if there's something I can do for punch, i was just trying not to lose detail
 
Last edited:
It's good to see flowers. I like your compositions and to my eye it is pleasing to see the whole subject in focus.

Both images look a little dark to me, especially the rose. This may simply be a matter of personal taste and be exactly the way you intend them to look, in which case please ignore the next two paragraphs.

First thought, Are you using a calibrated screen? (If not your images may look dark to people who are using calibrated screens.)

Second thought, I wonder if your white logo is affecting the tonality of the images? For the rose image, the histogram is filled. However, if you cover over the logo with the colour of the background the histogram has a quite large gap at the top, which means a lot of the available dynamic range is not being used for the image (excluding the logo), and that would make the image lower in contrast and "flat looking", as well as overall looking rather dark. There is a similar but much lesser effect with the orchid. (I can't illustrate any of this because you have Edit My Images set to No. In case you are wondering, as image downloading is disabled for your Flickr account I used screenshots to examine the images. If you would prefer me not to take this sort of approach please say so.)

I'm interested that you used f/32 in order to not lose detail. It does mean you got lots in focus (which I like - I use very small apertures too, although mainly for invertebrates rather than flowers). However, although you do get deep depth of focus you also lose considerable fine detail because of diffraction. Have you tried stacking, which lets you have deep depth of field and maximum fine detail? Stacking would be particularly appropriate as you are, I assume, shooting indoors and so there would be no issues of subject movement. I use stacking for flowers, out of doors - I don't do any shooting indoors - and it is definitely useful. For some subjects. In my experience sometimes it works well and easily. Sometimes it works well, but with difficulty, and sometimes considerable time on an individual image. And sometimes it doesn't (or at least I can't get it to) work well enough for my tastes and preferences. But it can produce some rather nice results for flowers and other botanical subjects, some of which could not be achieved with single shots.

As to Graham's point about lack of punch, have you experimented with using natural light? I know it is often said that the best time to photograph flowers is on an overcast day as that brings the colours out well. Flash can be used to emulate that. However, overcast days produce a very flat and even light. If you photograph flowers out of doors in brighter conditions all manner of interesting effects come and go as the sun changes position, clouds come and go, and pools of light are formed by light filtering through foliage above, the pools moving and changing the illumination as the sun moves. And sometimes the illumination changes continuously if the light is coming down through foliage that is moving in even a slight breeze. And other effects like light coming through translucent petals and foliage can produce results that please my eye at least. And it isn't just a matter of the impact of illumination on the subject; light and colours in backgrounds can become varied too, complementing the subject in different ways. Of course you might want to stick with even lighting and plain backgrounds. I know a lot of people prefer that.

One thought about post processing. Again, the orchid image may be exactly as you want and like it, in which case please ignore the next question. Have you tried pulling the highlights down to produce more visible texture in the petals?
 
It's good to see flowers. I like your compositions and to my eye it is pleasing to see the whole subject in focus.

Both images look a little dark to me, especially the rose. This may simply be a matter of personal taste and be exactly the way you intend them to look, in which case please ignore the next two paragraphs.

First thought, Are you using a calibrated screen? (If not your images may look dark to people who are using calibrated screens.)

Second thought, I wonder if your white logo is affecting the tonality of the images? For the rose image, the histogram is filled. However, if you cover over the logo with the colour of the background the histogram has a quite large gap at the top, which means a lot of the available dynamic range is not being used for the image (excluding the logo), and that would make the image lower in contrast and "flat looking", as well as overall looking rather dark. There is a similar but much lesser effect with the orchid. (I can't illustrate any of this because you have Edit My Images set to No. In case you are wondering, as image downloading is disabled for your Flickr account I used screenshots to examine the images. If you would prefer me not to take this sort of approach please say so.)

I'm interested that you used f/32 in order to not lose detail. It does mean you got lots in focus (which I like - I use very small apertures too, although mainly for invertebrates rather than flowers). However, although you do get deep depth of focus you also lose considerable fine detail because of diffraction. Have you tried stacking, which lets you have deep depth of field and maximum fine detail? Stacking would be particularly appropriate as you are, I assume, shooting indoors and so there would be no issues of subject movement. I use stacking for flowers, out of doors - I don't do any shooting indoors - and it is definitely useful. For some subjects. In my experience sometimes it works well and easily. Sometimes it works well, but with difficulty, and sometimes considerable time on an individual image. And sometimes it doesn't (or at least I can't get it to) work well enough for my tastes and preferences. But it can produce some rather nice results for flowers and other botanical subjects, some of which could not be achieved with single shots.

As to Graham's point about lack of punch, have you experimented with using natural light? I know it is often said that the best time to photograph flowers is on an overcast day as that brings the colours out well. Flash can be used to emulate that. However, overcast days produce a very flat and even light. If you photograph flowers out of doors in brighter conditions all manner of interesting effects come and go as the sun changes position, clouds come and go, and pools of light are formed by light filtering through foliage above, the pools moving and changing the illumination as the sun moves. And sometimes the illumination changes continuously if the light is coming down through foliage that is moving in even a slight breeze. And other effects like light coming through translucent petals and foliage can produce results that please my eye at least. And it isn't just a matter of the impact of illumination on the subject; light and colours in backgrounds can become varied too, complementing the subject in different ways. Of course you might want to stick with even lighting and plain backgrounds. I know a lot of people prefer that.

One thought about post processing. Again, the orchid image may be exactly as you want and like it, in which case please ignore the next question. Have you tried pulling the highlights down to produce more visible texture in the petals?

Thanks for the feedback

I used F32, I might have been able to use a wider aperture - but I don't have macro rails to do focus stacking, so I haven't done that - I would if I did.

If i used natural light, it wouldn't given me the same look as I'm trying to get, I actually would have been going for black backgrounds - but have gone coloured background for a wider appeal - I'm quite happy with the orchid, the rose I'm wondering if I added a second flash or reflector on the right for some background separation, also maybe some water droplets but that's beside the point.

I'm using a dell ultrasharp screen which should be calibrated out of the factory, I have tried using a spyder on it but it made it worse and have been generally happy with the original monitor rendition. I can understand that it's a little on the underexposed side and looks better against dark grey than it does the white of this forum.

I will send you the raws in case there's something you'd like to visually articulate to me
 
Thanks for the feedback

I used F32, I might have been able to use a wider aperture - but I don't have macro rails to do focus stacking, so I haven't done that - I would if I did.

The need for macro rails depends on the kit you are using. I don't know if your Hasselblad does focus bracketing or, what I use (generally hand-held), 4K focus-racked video, to provide images for stacking. I hadn't realised you were using medium format, so of course the impact on sharpness/detail of using f/32 would be a bit less than I was thinking of.

If i used natural light, it wouldn't given me the same look as I'm trying to get, I actually would have been going for black backgrounds - but have gone coloured background for a wider appeal - I'm quite happy with the orchid, the rose I'm wondering if I added a second flash or reflector on the right for some background separation, also maybe some water droplets but that's beside the point.

I'm using a dell ultrasharp screen which should be calibrated out of the factory, I have tried using a spyder on it but it made it worse and have been generally happy with the original monitor rendition. I can understand that it's a little on the underexposed side and looks better against dark grey than it does the white of this forum.

I will send you the raws in case there's something you'd like to visually articulate to me

We have very different aesthetic preferences, and this is a type of image (blank background) that I have no familiarity with, so the value of my doing edits is a bit doubtful in my mind. Still, I wouldn't want to cop out so I'll take the risk of offending your sensibilities and provide alternative renditions. (btw I have never touched a Hasselblad file before. A very pleasurable experience it was too.)

I found the red of the rose very difficult to deal with. From the difference between Lightroom's native rendition and the sRGB output I imagine that we are dealing with hues that aren't in the sRGB colour space. When output to JPEG the reds that looked ok in Lightroom appeared very garish. I had to play with the red luminance, saturation and hue to calm it down to what appeared (to my eye at least) somewhat credible in JPEG. Of course, I have no idea what the actual colour was like, so you might want to cut me some slack on that front. (We are both using Dell factory calibrated screens, so hopefully that will help a bit, although I wonder what colour space you are using. I am using sRGB. If you are using aRGB or something else that may make a difference too of course so you might not see exactly what I'm seeing.)

Anyway, FWIW (not much I suspect) here is an alternative rendition. (These are private on Flickr and so only accessible (or at least I hope they are accessible) via this thread. Unfortunately I don't know how to turn off downloading for individual images. I'm happy to do that for these if you or anyone else can tell me how.)


NOT MY IMAGE - Daniel Cook Photography - Rose - PP comparison
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

And again, FWIW, an alternative rendition of the orchid (with even more doubt in my mind as you are happy with your version). Incidentally, the reason I changed the aspect ratio was not so much aesthetic but more to allow (assuming the image takes up the same vertical space on the screen) a better (ie bigger/closer) look at the lovely structure of the flowers.


NOT MY IMAGE - Daniel Cook Photography - Orchid - PP comparison
by gardenersassistant, on Flickr

Obviously, if it happened to be of any interest to you, I can send you the full size versions.
 
The need for macro rails depends on the kit you are using. I don't know if your Hasselblad does focus bracketing or, what I use (generally hand-held), 4K focus-racked video, to provide images for stacking. I hadn't realised you were using medium format, so of course the impact on sharpness/detail of using f/32 would be a bit less than I was thinking of.

I just double checked but there doesn't seem to be any focus stacking option on the Hasselblad.

We have very different aesthetic preferences, and this is a type of image (blank background) that I have no familiarity with, so the value of my doing edits is a bit doubtful in my mind. Still, I wouldn't want to cop out so I'll take the risk of offending your sensibilities and provide alternative renditions. (btw I have never touched a Hasselblad file before. A very pleasurable experience it was too.)

I found the red of the rose very difficult to deal with. From the difference between Lightroom's native rendition and the sRGB output I imagine that we are dealing with hues that aren't in the sRGB colour space. When output to JPEG the reds that looked ok in Lightroom appeared very garish. I had to play with the red luminance, saturation and hue to calm it down to what appeared (to my eye at least) somewhat credible in JPEG. Of course, I have no idea what the actual colour was like, so you might want to cut me some slack on that front. (We are both using Dell factory calibrated screens, so hopefully that will help a bit, although I wonder what colour space you are using. I am using sRGB. If you are using aRGB or something else that may make a difference too of course so you might not see exactly what I'm seeing.)

Anyway, FWIW (not much I suspect) here is an alternative rendition. (These are private on Flickr and so only accessible (or at least I hope they are accessible) via this thread. Unfortunately I don't know how to turn off downloading for individual images. I'm happy to do that for these if you or anyone else can tell me how.)

And again, FWIW, an alternative rendition of the orchid (with even more doubt in my mind as you are happy with your version). Incidentally, the reason I changed the aspect ratio was not so much aesthetic but more to allow (assuming the image takes up the same vertical space on the screen) a better (ie bigger/closer) look at the lovely structure of the flowers.


Obviously, if it happened to be of any interest to you, I can send you the full size versions.

My monitor is set to RGB and Standard, a review for the monitor suggests that's very close to sRGB.
https://pcmonitors.info/reviews/dell-u3415w/

I see value in having more detail in the orchid petals, maybe I missed something in processing.

The images you have provided, show mine as more muted in colour than I posted - the following shows my original left, and then your image of mine and then yours.

Can you see that the left two images are different?

lrrose by dancook1982, on Flickr
 
The images you have provided, show mine as more muted in colour than I posted - the following shows my original left, and then your image of mine and then yours.

Can you see that the left two images are different?

Yes indeed. I like the look of your original.

This is curious. It is the second time recently I have had something like this happen. I think I will put my Asus screen back as my primary screen and run it with my x-rite calibrator rather than depending on the Dell and its factory calibration.
 
Yes indeed. I like the look of your original.

This is curious. It is the second time recently I have had something like this happen. I think I will put my Asus screen back as my primary screen and run it with my x-rite calibrator rather than depending on the Dell and its factory calibration.

Does the 'original' (left hand rose image) not look the same as the first one in the thread? they do on my PC
 
Does the 'original' (left hand rose image) not look the same as the first one in the thread? they do on my PC

Yes it does, but I've just noticed something else.

My monitor is set to RGB and Standard, a review for the monitor suggests that's very close to sRGB.
https://pcmonitors.info/reviews/dell-u3415w/

I am using a Dell UltraSharp UP2716D. I've been playing with the setup. It seems to me that Standard, RGB is different from sRGB. On the Dell screen setup menu you presumably see

Preset Modes Standard
Input Color Format RGB

With the screen set to sRGB (In the setup menu going through Color, Preset Modes, Color Space and then selecting sRGB) I see

Preset Modes Color Space
Input Color Format RGB

If you see the first of these then I don't think you are using sRGB.
 
Yes it does, but I've just noticed something else.



I am using a Dell UltraSharp UP2716D. I've been playing with the setup. It seems to me that Standard, RGB is different from sRGB. On the Dell screen setup menu you presumably see

Preset Modes Standard
Input Color Format RGB

With the screen set to sRGB (In the setup menu going through Color, Preset Modes, Color Space and then selecting sRGB) I see

Preset Modes Color Space
Input Color Format RGB

If you see the first of these then I don't think you are using sRGB.

i don't have any "sRGB" options, and another review confirms

"The W-LED unit offers a standard colour gamut which is approximately equal to the sRGB colour space (99% sRGB quoted)"
"There is some minor over-coverage in some blue and red shades, and some minor under-coverage in some green and red shades but not by anything significant."

So I think 'standard' is the mode I need
 
i don't have any "sRGB" options, and another review confirms

"The W-LED unit offers a standard colour gamut which is approximately equal to the sRGB colour space (99% sRGB quoted)"
"There is some minor over-coverage in some blue and red shades, and some minor under-coverage in some green and red shades but not by anything significant."

So I think 'standard' is the mode I need

Oh yes, so it is. (I just had a look at the manual). Presumably the difference is that your screen is natively sRGB while mine has wider colour spaces available (and incidentally is 100% sRGB quoted).

Hmm... That leaves a puzzle then.
 
Hmm... That leaves a puzzle then.

Actually, I don't think so. Your rose in the top post looks very good to me now, quite different from what I saw before, and what you saw on the left in my comparison. Your rose image looks subdued in colour - attractively so - but not dark, and the hue of the petals is quite different too, and appealing.

I can only assume that I previously had my screen set on something other than sRGB. Thanks for your patience in helping me to uncover and cure this. Of course my comments about your rose are of no relevance now.
 
Actually, I don't think so. Your rose in the top post looks very good to me now, quite different from what I saw before, and what you saw on the left in my comparison. Your rose image looks subdued in colour - attractively so - but not dark, and the hue of the petals is quite different too, and appealing.

I can only assume that I previously had my screen set on something other than sRGB. Thanks for your patience in helping me to uncover and cure this. Of course my comments about your rose are of no relevance now.

I'm glad you worked that out :) thanks for your commitment to this thread!
 
get rid of the blad rich boys toys and get a d850 as it has focus stacking
and it works a treat
 
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