A small claims question for any legal minds...

[woof woof]

The backstory...

My mother died last year and ever since and actually for years before I've been through absolute hell with my sister and to a lesser extent the daughter of another now deceased sister. Me and my sister are both executors but dealing with her was impossible as all she did was shout down the phone and make baseless accusations so I had to find a solicitor and this was definitely the right route to go down as she has been forced to agree to the payment of the solicitor dealing with our mothers estate, the transfer of the property and the distribution of our mothers life savings to the three beneficiaries. The only sticking point was the contents of the house over which my sister has created merry hell. I attempted to resolve this by having the house contents valued by a reputable company specialising in this and I then offered my sister and niece one third of the value each which they accepted. All good so far.

My sister and her son and daughter brow beat me into agree to them removing some items from the house and I did agree to this. I shouldn't have but I was suffering from grief on top of my longer term stress and depression. My mistake. So they rolled up and cherry picked what they wanted and they also removed all of my mothers photo albums and photo cubes etc. They took almost every photograph in the house except four which are framed and mounted. This was just before Christmas. My sister said that she wasn't interested in physical photographs but wanted to copy some onto her pc, the photos would then be returned to me "In the New Year."

The photos are now a sticking point. It had been proposed by my sister that her daughter would return them to me one Sunday and several dates were proposed. My reply was that any Sunday was fine by me but they never came. I am keen to either get the photos back or at least have access to them so that I can copy them and by the way this includes photos I've taken which were not strictly speaking my mothers property, I'd just put them in the albums, and there are also a large number of my mothers photos which I had paid to have copied, basically enlargements I had done at ASDA. And they did a nice job too.

The last letter from my sisters solicitor ignored the issue of the photos completely so my solicitor is going to raise this again but has told me that basically there's nothing they can do if my sister still wont return them. They said that I can't go to court over the photos as a part of the probate process but that I could go to a small claims court if my sister wont return them.

So, this is my query for anyone with a legal background or who has been through something similar... If I do have to go to the small claims court would they just put a monetary value on photos or could they somehow "order" my sister to return them or at least give me access to them so that I can copy them?

I would have asked my current solicitor but they don't do small claims so wouldn't even give an opinion. If I have to I will try and find a solicitor who does small claims but in the meantime I'm just wondering... if all the court will do is apply a monetary value (I'm assuming this will be nominal whereas to me they are basically priceless) is doing this really worth all the additional upset and stress. It's really is upsetting that a family member can remove just about every photograph. That's a lifetimes photos I may never see again.

 

[Dave Canon]

Sad. Fortunately when I have done my duty as an Executor, all involved cooperated in a friendly fashion even though there were complications. We dealt directly with the probate office and did use a deed of variation (at the suggestion of the probate Officer) to deal with one of the complications. One thing that may have helped is that neither I or the other Executor were bothered about inheritance ourselves so could concentrate on ensuring that others were treated fairly.

Dave

 

[woof woof]

Sad. Fortunately when I have done my duty as an Executor, all involved cooperated in a friendly fashion even though there were complications. We dealt directly with the probate office and did use a deed of variation (at the suggestion of the probate Officer) to deal with one of the complications. One thing that may have helped is that neither I or the other Executor were bothered about inheritance ourselves so could concentrate on ensuring that others were treated fairly.

Dave

Due to ongoing issues "we" and that includes my mother, had no contact with the two problem people for some time. We did try but had to give up. After our mothers death I really did try with my sister but sadly from her side it was just all too toxic.

I do hope that I either get access to the pictures or get them back but I'm beginning to think that the odds are that I wont.

 

[Box Brownie]

Due to ongoing issues "we" and that includes my mother, had no contact with the two problem people for some time. We did try but had to give up. After our mothers death I really did try with my sister but sadly from her side it was just all too toxic.

I do hope that I either get access to the pictures or get them back but I'm beginning to think that the odds are that I wont.

Very sadly it sounds like a cruel and dare I say malicious actions on her/their part(s).

I wonder if what is actually required is some form of reconciliation counselling but I surmise that will cost as much as a lawyer

I would like to hope that you will get sight of those photo albums but based on your description of the goings on , I fear they might no longer be in the state that you remember of them.

I hope I am only being the pessimist, as I can perceive of no normal reason why she/they are obfuscating the situation......but what seems clear is as you describe, since your mum was alive your relatives have their own agenda

 

[woof woof]

Very sadly it sounds like a cruel and dare I say malicious actions on her/their part(s).

I wonder if what is actually required is some form of reconciliation counselling but I surmise that will cost as much as a lawyer

I would like to hope that you will get sight of those photo albums but based on your description of the goings on , I fear they might no longer be in the state that you remember of them.

I hope I am only being the pessimist, as I can perceive of no normal reason why she/they are obfuscating the situation......but what seems clear is as you describe, since your mum was alive your relatives have their own agenda

Yes, I do think not returning the pictures or not at least giving me access to them to copy them is malicious as she has previously said that she doesn't want physical pictures. I do have my fingers crossed for a reasonable response once she gets the next letter from my solicitor but I haven't got much hope.

I'll await a response from anyone who has gone through anything similar but I think that dragging this out and going to small claims just wont be worth it if all they can do is apply some nominal value as a few hundred quid just wont be worth the worry and upset.

 

[Box Brownie]

Yes, I do think not returning the pictures or not at least giving me access to them to copy them is malicious as she has previously said that she doesn't want physical pictures. I do have my fingers crossed for a reasonable response once she gets the next letter from my solicitor but I haven't got much hope.

I'll await a response from anyone who has gone through anything similar but I think that dragging this out and going to small claims just wont be worth it if all they can do is apply some nominal value as a few hundred quid just wont be worth the worry and upset.

I am concerned that such 'family' dispute would not fall within the remit of a small claims court.

I looked up for the scope and found this page.,.

Deciding whether to make a small claim

Find out what you should consider before starting a small claim and when you can make one.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk

On one hand I would 'hope' there just might be someone hereabouts to share their experience but on the other hand I sincerely hope no one else has been subjected to what you & your wife have had to suffer at the hands of your kin.

As that is the CAB site, perhaps consult them and if I recall correctly......there are some situations where they can get a solicitor to give a legal aspect guidance.

All the best to you and your wife getting to a point of closure on this matter

 

[TheFiend]

There's an old saying " you can choose your friends but you can't choose your family".... By my own experience I know that is true, especially with regards to my late fathers family when it came to fighting over both his brothers wills!!!

 

[woof woof]

I am concerned that such 'family' dispute would not fall within the remit of a small claims court.

I hope this certainly would be within the remit of a small claims court as my pictures (the ones I took and put in the albums back when I shot film) are my property and some should clearly and easily be seen as such in that they are not "family" pictures anyone would expect my mother to have, pictures of my cars, days out with girlfriends etc. I don't know how these could be valued except to tot up the film and development costs. The enlargements of my mothers pictures which I had made for myself and which I paid for are easier to value as I paid for them. These two classes of photos would I'd hope be seen as "mine" by any reasonably minded person but exactly how a court would value these I don't know. The house contents valuer gave no value for the family albums but I assume they should be included in the house contents valuation total and both my niece and my sister have accepted the amount I offered. One third each of the valuation. If it comes to dividing these photos between us, me, my sister and my niece should be entitled to a third each. I don't see why my sister should be allowed to keep them all although I would agree to her keeping them if she would just give me access to those I want to copy.

If a small claims court can not somehow compel her to hand these pictures back or give me access for copying I don't really see the point of going to court as what value could/would they apply? I can not put a price on them and I'm sure that whatever value the court would place on them could not in any way compensate me for their loss. I don't think the pictures would have any sales value so I have no idea how a court would value them. Copying them would come to hundred of £ but that's not their value to me.

 

[Dave Canon]

I have had two experiences with Small Claims Court. One was a Holiday cottage I hired which was withdrawn only days before the holiday; it had been sold. The courts awarded the claim to me and ordered the guy who owned the cottage to pay me £500. He did not and and has never done so as he fled his home before the summons arrived; he was expecting others as well. The second case was against a large international company but in this case once they had convinced themselves that I would go ahead which I definitely intended to do so, they settled out of court in a very satisfactory way. From this I learnt that it may almost be a waste of time to sue an individual who may not have the means to pay or may hide. On the other hand a reputable company does not wish the bad publicity of a court case which may be picked up by a local newspaper then later a national newspaper.

Dave

 

[Zak54]

A sad situation at at a sad time. My partner and I have recently gone through respective bereavements and estate management. My brother and I just got on with it, shared stuff out and let our sons have what they fancied. He trusted me to deal with the probate, house sale etc and I kept him fully briefed. Unfortunately my partners sisters made their whole process thoroughly unpleasant by preventing my partner visiting her mothers house alone and being secretive about all the financial affairs. Whilst one sister did have power of attorney this was an excuse for an ‘I’ll do whatever I want’ attitude including ignoring final wishes and agreed funeral arrangements.

 

[woof woof]

Thanks all.

When all the trouble started, years before my mothers death, I thought what we were going through must be pretty rare but talking to people I'm finding that trouble in families is pretty common although the intensity and degree varies but actually some people have been through worse experiences than I'm going through.

I suppose I'm not all that surprised by the breakup of he family as these things happen but the speed with which it happened and the intensity of the bad feeling has been just shocking and shattering. And all this started through a simple request for help caring for our mother. All I asked was one day a fortnight from each of my two sisters and that request which was politely made lead to an immediate nuclear explosion from one sister who became verbally abusive and whilst the other sister said she would help she didn't and when I asked for a second time she blew up too. Sadly both sisters took their children with them which is upsetting as I wonder why didn't they ask me "Is what mam says true?" I suppose it's understandable that they'd take their mothers side. I honestly never saw any of this coming and of course it's carried on after our mothers death to the point that I just can not talk to my sister at all and I have no contact with my nieces and nephew or their children. That's all of my immediate family just gone which I suppose in part explains why the photos are so important to me as they were all I had left.

 

[the black fox]

In times of grief the best and worst comes out in families ,been through the downsides many years ago when my parents died . The best advice is just accept things and remember vengeance is a dish best served cold … your own mental health is the most important concern … as solicitors are already involved let them deal with it and accept the outcome

 

[woof woof]

In times of grief the best and worst comes out in families ,been through the downsides many years ago when my parents died . The best advice is just accept things and remember vengeance is a dish best served cold … your own mental health is the most important concern … as solicitors are already involved let them deal with it and accept the outcome

There is no vengeance. I'm not interested in any vengeance. I've tried to mend fences but all I got was screamed at so it's a case of getting through this and moving on without my local family as I've given up any hope of a relationship with any of them now. However, since all this started my little circle of friends has expanded exponentially and apart from the obvious lingering pain of losing contact my local family I don't feel I need them as I once did. Not that they ever were in any way supportive but I did look forward to seeing them.

Unfortunately accepting the outcome from the solicitors could well mean giving up all hope of seeing the family albums again as this issue just doesn't seem important to them which I do find odd as I think they should be considered as a part of the house contents which everyone seems to agree should be valued and shared equally and remember that a large number of these photographs are actually mine. To me not returning those belonging to me should be viewed as theft. I wonder what would most of us would give up first? A thirds share of the assessed value of a house contents (which is pretty low) or a lifetime of family photographs? To me and I hope to many people the photographs are much more important and much more valuable. If my solicitor can't at least get me access to them then I think it's worth going through even more anguish to at least try one last time through small claims.

Mental health.... It's a difficult thing. I have lived with stress and depression for 25 years and of course I've been to my doctor and recently so but the help routes simply melted away and came to nothing. Yes, I could try again and push things further but I know in my own mind that once all legal processes are over I almost certainly wont need this imaginary melting away mental health support.

 

[woof woof]

PS.

I've just tried to talk to the police and of course as I suspected they say that no crime has been committed. The woman was just like a recorded message on a loop and just kept saying that I should go back to my solicitor. Me telling her that the solicitor had pointed me to the police just lead to her repeating her script and pointing me back to the solicitor. As I suspected and indeed just as I told the solicitor. Utterly Useless.

So, someone asks to borrow something and of course they'll bring it back in a few weeks, 8 months later and no sign of it despite repeated solicitors letters and... No crime has been committed. Just what I expected.

Still. This is really just what I expected as my sister has thrown baseless allegations and blown smoke and delayed and lied but been pushed to act and cooperate in all aspects except over the photos and this is the last and only way in which she can cause me upset and pain.

 

[billy nomates]

TLDR
But if they were your pictures then get on with dealing with the estate and afterwards it would appear to be a copyright issue.
If you took the images do you not have backups? If you have no backups then you are going to struggle to prove ownership anyway.
So my advice would be to move on and live your best life because every experience I've had of the small claims route (mainly business related) has generated a lot more grey hairs and negativity than it has provided any semblance of resolution.
Put it this way even if you won they can just take a CCJ hit for 6 years and live rent free in you brain for all that time, the system does not work in your favour, sorry!

 

[woof woof]

TLDR
But if they were your pictures then get on with dealing with the estate and afterwards it would appear to be a copyright issue.
If you took the images do you not have backups? If you have no backups then you are going to struggle to prove ownership anyway.
So my advice would be to move on and live your best life because every experience I've had of the small claims route (mainly business related) has generated a lot more grey hairs and negativity than it has provided any semblance of resolution.
Put it this way even if you won they can just take a CCJ hit for 6 years and live rent free in you brain for all that time, the system does not work in your favour, sorry!

The pictures I put in the back of the family albums were film prints not digital prints and after all these years I'd be hard pushed to find the negatives, if I still have them as they must date back over 20 years now.

As to proving ownership... With the house contents my sister asked me to provide receipts for everything I claimed I owned but me and my solicitor thought this was ridiculous (and it was) and told her so and the line I took with the valuer was "Was it likely that my 94 year old mother owned this?" This all seemed to work and she dropped this idiotic demand and never mentioned it again. I'd take the same line with photographs. For example is it likely that my dear old mother took photos of my cars or of me and various GF's on days out and holidays? Surely any reasonable person would take one look at the "family pictures" in the albums which are of three types, my parents professionally taken wedding photos, school photos of all us kids and clearly very amateur snaps taken with basic old kit of the time and another look at the pictures in the back which would be easily seen to be quite different (often bigger, in colour, better quality) and conclude that I was telling the truth. Ditto the copies I had made. They are clearly and obviously different to the originals in the albums.

I do take your point but please take into account that for me this isn't a question of money or even hassle it's a question of losing hundreds of photos which can never be replaced or trying to at least get access to them to copy them. I do think I've probably seen the last of the albums and if this is the case may that vile woman burn in hell for all she's put me through in the past few years.

I just thought I'd ask here and I have received some good advice by pm. I'll now wait and see what happens in the coming weeks and if my solicitor informs me that they're all done and dusted and I haven't received the photos back I'll decide what to do.

I suppose there's a lesson here for us all... Even with close family.... Assume the worst and protect your own interests. I should never ever have given her access to the house but as above, under stress and suffering from depression I gave them access. Never again.

 

[Nod]

Due to ongoing issues "we" and that includes my mother, had no contact with the two problem people for some time. We did try but had to give up. After our mothers death I really did try with my sister but sadly from her side it was just all too toxic.

I do hope that I either get access to the pictures or get them back but I'm beginning to think that the odds are that I wont.

I just wrote all the family photos off to experience and have nothing to do with my sister. Saved a fortune in solicitors' fees!

 

[Stephen L]

I just wrote all the family photos off to experience and have nothing to do with my sister. Saved a fortune in solicitors' fees!

And remember, you will still have the memories in your mind. Photos are just a jog of those memories. I have relatively few photos, especially of the earlier days, but I still have my memories, and they are in effect videos, not stills.

 

[Mr Bump]

@woof woof sounds to me mate that you may be in a hole that is going to be very difficult to get out of.
reading between the lines it sounds like these "sibling differences" are deeply rooted.

my thoughts are just get on with disposing of the rest of the estate and let the fog of war clear and get on with your life which i suspect has been severely impacted by this.

 

[woof woof]

I just wrote all the family photos off to experience and have nothing to do with my sister. Saved a fortune in solicitors' fees!

Unfortunately me and my sister are both executors and when our mother died she refused to cooperate so I had to go to a solicitor to go down the route of pushing her to cooperate or potentially removing her as an executor. As she wouldn't cooperate I had no choice. In the end she's folded and agreed to cooperate and sign the various things that need signing including agreeing to pay the solicitor dealing with my mothers estate, transfer her life savings to the beneficiaries and the sign over of her property. The only outstanding issue now, assuming she doesn't go back on her word and refuses to do what legally has eventually to be done, is the family photographs. She did previously and in writing agree to return them but she never did. I'm hoping she does or if not that she at least gives me access. I do know that she doesn't want the photos, she said she doesn't want physical photos and only wanted to copy some onto her pc, so I think I'm right in assuming that not returning them is just malice.

All this started when I asked my sisters to visit once a week (so that's once a fortnight each) so that me and Mrs WW could have a break once a week and go out for a few hours without worrying what's happening at home. The result of that request has been the complete break up of the immediate close family.

 

[woof woof]

@woof woof sounds to me mate that you may be in a hole that is going to be very difficult to get out of.
reading between the lines it sounds like these "sibling differences" are deeply rooted.

my thoughts are just get on with disposing of the rest of the estate and let the fog of war clear and get on with your life which i suspect has been severely impacted by this.

Oh yes, very deeply rooted and it all dates back to just one thing, the request for help once a fortnight from each of them. Before that we had a relationship of sorts and both of my sisters used to visit maybe once a month and we'd visit them and we talked on the phone at least once a week. Even this was a bit limited as one sister lived next door but she kept herself very much at arms length. Problem sister lives maybe 10 minutes drive away.

I did try to mend bridges with both my sisters but it was simply impossible as of course mending bridges could have lead to them getting involved and the truth is that neither of them wanted that. The sister who lived next door has since died and the other is the current problem one. After the way they've all behaved I have no intention of having any contact with any of them again.

 

[woof woof]

And remember, you will still have the memories in your mind. Photos are just a jog of those memories. I have relatively few photos, especially of the earlier days, but I still have my memories, and they are in effect videos, not stills.

It's still very upsetting though. Mrs WW just doesn't get it but to me those pictures were and are important.

 

[Stephen L]

It's still very upsetting though. Mrs WW just doesn't get it but to me those pictures were and are important.

Oh, I fully understand and it's a terrible situation to be in, but in reality, however distasteful and upsetting it is, you may be forced to just accept the situation and move on. Who knows, in time her feeling might mellow. I've certainly experienced that with discordant relatives.

 

[Mr Bump]

Oh yes, very deeply rooted and it all dates back to just one thing, the request for help once a fortnight from each of them. Before that we had a relationship of sorts and both of my sisters used to visit maybe once a month and we'd visit them and we talked on the phone at least once a week. Even this was a bit limited as one sister lived next door but she kept herself very much at arms length. Problem sister lives maybe 10 minutes drive away.

I did try to mend bridges with both my sisters but it was simply impossible as of course mending bridges could have lead to them getting involved and the truth is that neither of them wanted that. The sister who lived next door has since died and the other is the current problem one. After the way they've all behaved I have no intention of having any contact with any of them again.

Good , now book a nice holiday

or take a darker approach your other sister may die before you and you will get all the pictures back then

 

[woof woof]

Good , now book a nice holiday

or take a darker approach your other sister may die before you and you will get all the pictures back then

A holiday would be nice, August 2019 was my last as caring duties took priority. Sis has a son and daughter so it depends who'd get their hands on them. My nephew might hand them or some of them over but my niece almost certainly wouldn't.

Mrs WW being eastern is a big believer in Karma whereas I tend to think that in this world at least the lord helps those who help themselves.

 

[Mr Bump]

A holiday would be nice, August 2019 was my last as caring duties took priority. Sis has a son and daughter so it depends who'd get their hands on them. My nephew might hand them or some of them over but my niece almost certainly wouldn't.

Mrs WW being eastern is a big believer in Karma whereas I tend to think that in this world at least the lord helps those who help themselves.

yeah sounds good, just chill out and have a nice cold chianti

 

[woof woof]

yeah sounds good, just chill out and have a nice cold chianti

That's not really me but a nice cider is.

 

[Mr Bump]

That's not really me but a nice cider is.

oooo me to, but its got to hate to say "craft" comes in a box and has to be still, fave is black dragon by gwntt-a-draig

 

[boogie man]

Sorry to say but I honestly can’t see a small claims court being interested or helpful with something that has sentimental value but no real monetary value as such. I’m also not surprised the police aren’t interested as there’s no crime involved and they won’t get involved in a minor domestic matter….in fact I’m more surprised that your solicitor even thought it was a good idea. Hopefully you’ll eventually get some cooperation from your sister but I think that’s all you can realistically hope for.

Death in the family always seems to bring out the worst in people. When my granny died, one of cousins left the funeral literally as soon as the coffin had disappeared, raced back to my gran’s house and took all the family history records, paperwork and the vast majority of the family photos and skidaddled. When she was challenged about it later she claimed she was “the family historian” and was somehow entitled to it all, even though where it ended up should’ve been decided by my mum and her brothers and sisters. Nobody’s seen any of the stuff since. Even her own father thought it was disgusting behaviour and refused to talk to her ever again, which he stuck to till the day he died.

 

[woof woof]

Sorry to say but I honestly can’t see a small claims court being interested or helpful with something that has sentimental value but no real monetary value as such. I’m also not surprised the police aren’t interested as there’s no crime involved and they won’t get involved in a minor domestic matter….in fact I’m more surprised that your solicitor even thought it was a good idea. Hopefully you’ll eventually get some cooperation from your sister but I think that’s all you can realistically hope for.

Death in the family always seems to bring out the worst in people. When my granny died, one of cousins left the funeral literally as soon as the coffin had disappeared, raced back to my gran’s house and took all the family history records, paperwork and the vast majority of the family photos and skidaddled. When she was challenged about it later she claimed she was “the family historian” and was somehow entitled to it all, even though where it ended up should’ve been decided by my mum and her brothers and sisters. Nobody’s seen any of the stuff since. Even her own father thought it was disgusting behaviour and refused to talk to her ever again, which he stuck to till the day he died.

No real monetary value? Oh dear. Another person who decides to post who hasn't read the thread? Sorry but there have been a couple of posts here which have tried my patience. Pls. Read the thread.

My property is mine and it has a value which can be determined for example I paid about £130-£150 (I forget) or so for a lot of prints just weeks before sis took them and she is refusing to return them. I really do struggle to understand why someone depriving me of my property isn't a crime. Imagine if someone borrows your car/watch/phone/coat/whatever and then refuses to return it. That's not a crime? That is surprising, if true and not just an indication that the police do sweet FA about most things any ordinary person would see as "crimes" these days.

Even ignoring the monetary value of the photos which belong to me each beneficiary should be entitled to a third of the photos which belong to the estate or the equivalent monetary value. The fact that the police and the solicitor just point me at each other just tells me that neither can be arsed.

Googling this issue gives an answer which I agree with. From Ask the police...

"If you have a problem with someone who has borrowed your property and has not given it back, keep a record of all the occasions you have asked for it and then ask a solicitor to send a formal letter asking for the return of the property. If the property is still not returned, there may be sufficient reason to justify making a complaint of theft to the police."

Seems fair enough to me.

Sis has received several solicitors letters which included references to the photos and their return and has previously agreed to return them and indeed several possible dates were suggested by her and agreed to by me but it never happened. The initial agreement to return the photos seems to indicate to me an acceptance that they were not a gift and were indeed to be returned and failure to do so could therefore be a crime. I'll see what happens in the coming weeks. Sis is going to receive a "Strongly worded" letter from my solicitor and she'll then respond or not and if not I will think about what to do next, if anything, but if might well be something.

Oh and a PS.
In Ask the police they give an example of a power drill. I know that you can pay whatever you want for a power drill but you can get one for £50 or less, that's potentially a third of what I paid for the prints.

 

[boogie man]

No real monetary value? Oh dear. Another person who decides to post who hasn't read the thread? Sorry but there have been a couple of posts here which have tried my patience. Pls. Read the thread.

My property is mine and it has a value which can be determined for example I paid about £130-£150 (I forget) or so for a lot of prints just weeks before sis took them and she is refusing to return them. I really do struggle to understand why someone depriving me of my property isn't a crime. Imagine if someone borrows your car/watch/phone/coat/whatever and then refuses to return it. That's not a crime? That is surprising, if true and not just an indication that the police do sweet FA about most things any ordinary person would see as "crimes" these days.

Even ignoring the monetary value of the photos which belong to me each beneficiary should be entitled to a third of the photos which belong to the estate or the equivalent monetary value. The fact that the police and the solicitor just point me at each other just tells me that neither can be arsed.

Googling this issue gives an answer which I agree with. From Ask the police...

"If you have a problem with someone who has borrowed your property and has not given it back, keep a record of all the occasions you have asked for it and then ask a solicitor to send a formal letter asking for the return of the property. If the property is still not returned, there may be sufficient reason to justify making a complaint of theft to the police."

Seems fair enough to me.

Sis has received several solicitors letters which included references to the photos and their return and has previously agreed to return them and indeed several possible dates were suggested by her and agreed to by me but it never happened. The initial agreement to return the photos seems to indicate to me an acceptance that they were not a gift and were indeed to be returned and failure to do so could therefore be a crime. I'll see what happens in the coming weeks. Sis is going to receive a "Strongly worded" letter from my solicitor and she'll then respond or not and if not I will think about what to do next, if anything, but if might well be something.

Oh and a PS.
In Ask the police they give an example of a power drill. I know that you can pay whatever you want for a power drill but you can get one for £50 or less, that's potentially a third of what I paid for the prints.

Actually I did read the whole thread.

Sadly, while I realise it’s a nasty situation to be in, I think it’s extremely unlikely that the police will be willing to get involved in the case. They barely respond to car theft or break ins where there’s a lot more things of value taken…. they’ll just give you a crime number and tell you to claim off your insurance. If you do get something out of the police then good for you, but I wouldn’t hold my breath. I’ve got a couple of friends who are both recently retired ex Met officers and they both say the police force is woefully understafffed and simply doesn’t have the capacity to respond to a lot of crime these days. You only have to look at all the clips of shoplifters brazenly walking out with armfuls of stuff because they know there’ll be no ramifications.

Best of luck.

 

[woof woof]

Actually I did read the whole thread.

Sadly, while I realise it’s a nasty situation to be in, I think it’s extremely unlikely that the police will be willing to get involved in the case. They barely respond to car theft or break ins where there’s a lot more things of value taken…. they’ll just give you a crime number and tell you to claim off your insurance. If you do get something out of the police then good for you, but I wouldn’t hold my breath. I’ve got a couple of friends who are both recently retired ex Met officers and they both say the police force is woefully understafffed and simply doesn’t have the capacity to respond to a lot of crime these days. You only have to look at all the clips of shoplifters brazenly walking out with armfuls of stuff because they know there’ll be no ramifications.

Best of luck.

And yet you continued with the no real value line. I suppose this depends on the value concerned and if £130-£150 worth of photos adds up to a power drill you can buy on Amazon for £24.99.

This thread has raised questions for me but there have been two positives. Firstly I've received some good help and advice via pm from someone who appears to have experience and appears to know what they're talking about and secondly Ask the police seems to indicate that I'm not necessarily completely mad in believing that failing to return borrowed items could be theft. I do have some hope that despite the police having a laissez faire attitude to anything other then social media posts I can at least try two different avenues (small claims or the police or at least a letter from another solicitor stating the possibility of police involvement) should the latest letter from my solicitor fail to get a positive response.

If I get nowhere then fair enough but I'll have at least tried.

 

[ecoleman]

And yet you continued with the no real value line. I suppose this depends on the value concerned and if £130-£150 worth of photos adds up to a power drill you can buy on Amazon for £24.99.

This thread has raised questions for me but there have been two positives. Firstly I've received some good help and advice via pm from someone who appears to have experience and appears to know what they're talking about and secondly Ask the police seems to indicate that I'm not necessarily completely mad in believing that failing to return borrowed items could be theft. I do have some hope that despite the police having a laissez faire attitude to anything other then social media posts I can at least try two different avenues (small claims or the police or at least a letter from another solicitor stating the possibility of police involvement) should the latest letter from my solicitor fail to get a positive response.

If I get nowhere then fair enough but I'll have at least tried.

I don't think @boogie man was suggesting that your photos had no value (people value different things differently) but was trying to put across that a judge may have difficulties in putting a value on them should you go down the small claims route.

Whilst I'm sure most of us here can see the injustice in what has happened and in the spirit of the law should be seen as theft, the sad reality is that nobody cares.

If you have proof of the costs you incurred in printing some of these photographs then there is a chance you may be able to recover that but as you pointed out in your OP, it's not about the money.

 

[woof woof]

I don't think @boogie man was suggesting that your photos had no value (people value different things differently) but was trying to put across that a judge may have difficulties in putting a value on them should you go down the small claims route.

Whilst I'm sure most of us here can see the injustice in what has happened and in the spirit of the law should be seen as theft, the sad reality is that nobody cares.

If you have proof of the costs you incurred in printing some of these photographs then there is a chance you may be able to recover that but as you pointed out in your OP, it's not about the money.

If you read his post you'll see what he posted, what he was in his own mind suggesting is I suppose arguable but it seemed pretty clear to me hence my suspicion that he hadn't read the thread. Some of the photos do in my opinion have a clear value. If others think so, time will tell if I have to go down that route.

I do appreciate all the posts here and of course what we think doesn't really matter. What will matter is if the police, a solicitor or a court will act or not and if this is in any way a course of action from which a positive outcome could be achieved. After googling and reading the same thing about a borrowed power drill on two different police websites now I'm more confident that even if the police wont act a solicitors letter stating that a criminal offence may have been committed and that if no cooperation if forthcoming a report to will be made to the police and / or a claim will be made in small claims could be believable, justified and defendable and could act as levers with which to prise some cooperation out of my reluctant to be reasonable sister.

It's not about the money for me. For my sister and knowing how she's acted over the past few years it is almost certainly about how much upset and distress she and her family can cause me and my wife but she does care about money and the thought of spending more to answer further solicitors letters or potentially attend a small claims court with the hypothetical shadow of the police also in the mix (even if you and I would faint with surprise if they actually did anything) could just persuade her that being reasonable is in her own interest.

A couple of service policemen often attend our local church so I might have a quick word and see what they think but the police will be a last (and probably hopeless) resort. The threat of police or a court and the possibility of paying for yet more solicitors advice or letters and potential court costs is more likely to get some cooperation.

We'll see.

 

[boogie man]

For what it’s worth I didn’t say the photos have no sentimental value… obviously they mean a great deal to you. What I was saying is I doubt the legal system would consider the monetary value of the prints, and what adds up to a minor family dispute, is worth their while getting involved in. Likewise I seriously doubt the police will be bothered over £150 worth of prints, or whatever they’re worth, no matter what they say on their websites. They just don’t have the manpower to chase this matter.

You asked for opinions : that’s mine. I won’t bother commenting again as you’ve already made your mind up that I’m wrong it seems. I’ll say it again, good luck.

 

[woof woof]

For what it’s worth I didn’t say the photos have no sentimental value… obviously they mean a great deal to you. What I was saying is I doubt the legal system would consider the monetary value of the prints, and what adds up to a minor family dispute, is worth their while getting involved in. Likewise I seriously doubt the police will be bothered over £150 worth of prints, or whatever they’re worth, no matter what they say on their websites. They just don’t have the manpower to chase this matter.

You asked for opinions : that’s mine. I won’t bother commenting again as you’ve already made your mind up that I’m wrong it seems. I’ll say it again, good luck.

I refer you to me earlier post.

The strongly worded letter has gone out and I'm awaiting an answer. If she wont give me access I will if at all possible take her to a small claims court.

People may disagree but I think it's worth a try. Right or wrong... These photos are of great value to me and for me its worth trying everything I can. For me it'd be wrong not to try and at least get access. If I fail at least I've tried.

 

[andya700]

I refer you to me earlier post.

The strongly worded letter has gone out and I'm awaiting an answer. If she wont give me access I will if at all possible take her to a small claims court.

People may disagree but I think it's worth a try. Right or wrong... These photos are of great value to me and for me its worth trying everything I can. For me it'd be wrong not to try and at least get access. If I fail at least I've tried.

Sorry to hear you going through all this, I know how you feel, having gone through a very similar situation. I believe that since 2020, a lot of things have happened due to legal procedures being ignored or short cuts taken. I hope you get a satisfactory outcome to your situation.

 

[woof woof]

Well. maybe good news.

I've had a series of emails from my solicitor with very strongly worded letters to my sister and her solicitor attached and today my solicitor rang to say that the photo albums will be dropped off at their office on Tuesday morning. I'm hoping that not too many pictures have been removed. I was a little shocked as the letters were much stronger in tone than any previously sent but it looks like they've been effective and that I'll be getting something back.

I do wonder if the timing has anything to do with this as on 18th it was a year since our mother died and on Sunday it's my sisters birthday. Maybe these significant dates together with the strongly worded letters have prompted her to be reasonable. Maybe further legal action wont be needed, fingers crossed.

 

[Box Brownie]

@woof woof

I sincerely hope for you & your wife's peace of mind and well being that the albums contain the images you expect to find and the matter will finally be settled to your satisfaction & contentment