fast lenses and dof I'm confused

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Mark
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Ok it's Monday night and I've successfully confused the hell out of myself:bang:

I'm curious as to the benefits of fast lenses.

I understand that they give you a faster shutter speed in low light but surely this results in a really shallow depth of field.

I'm guessing that they aren't faster across the aperture range or are they? My admittedly amateurish test says not.

So do you just accept a really shallow dof on the basis that as it's dark you're not to worried about deep dof or am I missing something:thinking:

While I'm busy confusing myself is there a way of calculating the dof of a lens at different apertures?

Sorry that this is a bit of a rambling question and I'm sure the answer is either very simple or contains unfathomable maths but this is bugging me.
 
You've got it bang on there. Fast lenses do give a really shallow depth of field. This can be a huge advantage when you want to get rid of a background that's actually quite close to the subject as well as letting you shoot in lower light.

There are DoF calculators on the net that will tell you what a lens will do at a given f stop. There is probably even one on here somewhere.
 
You're not missing a thing - fast lens shot wide open = shallow DoF
 
Thanks folks, that was going to keep me awake.

I guess the real advantage is the superior optics required for a lens to open that far, which may help improve it's performance across the range, although this isn't necessarily the case is it?

ermm Joe - Happy Christmas:D
 
Most of the 2.8 lenses work pretty well wide open. The Canon 50mm f/1.4 is a little (only a little) soft wide open but all the L lenses like the 135 f/2, 85 f/1.2, 50 f/1.2, etc. are probably sharper wide open than some consumer grade lenses at their sweet spot.

I would expect the same can be said for lenses from other makes as well. Of course that kind of quality comes at a price :(
 
Another benefit of a fast lens, even if you use it stopped down is focussing.

Focussing is done wide open, so the more light your lens lets in naturally, the easier the AF-pixies find it to get the focussing spot on.
 
two other things that have not been mentiononed above

A fast lens such as a 400mm f2.8 has a very shallow depth of field, and because of this the camera can focus really quickly due to the fact that the camera can tell (better) whether something is in or out of focus due to the fact that it is really in or really out of focus - this is one of the resons why these types of lenses are used so much in sport - even in good daylight - the shot may even be taken at f5.6 but the fast apeture allows really fast focusing to track action

A fast apeture will give a brighter viewfinder image making it easier to compose the image
 
A bonus of the smaller sensors too is that they give a bit more DoF at any given aperture than a full frame one, and as they also give the effect of having a more powerful lens that's go to help you sporty shooters get more sharp shots surely (alliteratively speaking :LOL:)
 
Thanks folks.
In my quick test the faster lens did pull focus much quicker, I put that down to a better af mechanism but I see now how those pixies work better in the light:D
 
1: faster focusing
2: brighter view finder image
3: better construction (sometimes)
4: more ££££££££££££
 
Ok it's Monday night and I've successfully confused the hell out of myself:bang:

I'm curious as to the benefits of fast lenses.

I understand that they give you a faster shutter speed in low light but surely this results in a really shallow depth of field.

I'm guessing that they aren't faster across the aperture range or are they? My admittedly amateurish test says not.

So do you just accept a really shallow dof on the basis that as it's dark you're not to worried about deep dof or am I missing something:thinking:

While I'm busy confusing myself is there a way of calculating the dof of a lens at different apertures?

Sorry that this is a bit of a rambling question and I'm sure the answer is either very simple or contains unfathomable maths but this is bugging me.

You can get quite deeply into math, but there is a more commonsense and easy answer.

Consider first that all photography is a compromise. Exposure is never absolute, because not everything is lit the same. Focus is never absolute, because everything is a different distance from the lens, and so on.

Now, with lenses, there is a four-way dance going on.

First is the focal length. In general, all other things being equal, a longer focal length produces shallower depth of field. So a 90mm lens at f/2.8 has a shallower DOF than a 50mm lens at f/2.8 for the exact same situation.

Second is lens aperture. In general, all other things being equal, a wider aperture (lower f-stop number) has less DOF than a smaller aperture (higher f-stop number).

Third is distance from your subject. In general, all other things being equal, if you are closer to your subject, there is less DOF than if you are farther away from your subject.

And fourth is sensor or film image size. In general, all other things being equal, if you have a 35mm film or that size sensor, you have less DOF than if you have a smaller sensor or film size. Larger films and sensors are the opposite, of course.

So...

A 50mm lens set to f/1.4 can see better in the dark, meaning lower light and faster shutter speed, but it will have very low DOF depending on how far you are from your subject and what size sensor you have.

In addition - not to make things overly complicated - lenses are generally at their best optically when they are stopped down a bit. Usually somewhere between f/5.6 and f/8 or so - it varies depending on lens.

Fast & Good lenses are a bit rare, and often quite dear as well. The goal if price were no object would be a lens that is as good at f/1.4 as it is at f/8, but few are. So not only do you get shallow DOF, but often less than perfect image quality.

The only real workaround in such a situation would be faster film (or sensor ISO setting) but of course that brings its own set of compromises to the table, or slower shutter speed, which introduces blur - either from your movement or from your subject's movement. Like I said, compromises - the name of the game.

Calculating DOF can make your head swim, but fortunately there are two methods to help you.

The first is a stop-down preview mechanism. Some SLR cameras have them, some do not. I have found it to be an approximation, as stopping down makes the viewfinder rather dim unless you're shooting wide open, so you're not really seeing what the camera will see in general terms. Of course, there is no stop-down preview for non-SLR type cameras, as you do not view through the taking lens on other types.

The second, and perhaps easier, is to use a calculator like that available on DOFMaster.

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

This is really rather simple to use. It asks the four questions I mentioned above - lens focal length, f-stop, distance to subject, and size of sensor or film.

Then it calculates the overall DOF, and also reports the distance in front of where you have focused that will be acceptably sharp and the area behind where you have focused that will also be acceptably sharp.

This is a creative tool for advanced photographers who wish to take more creative control of their work.

It is relatively easy to take a portrait with a 90mm lens at f/2.8 from a short distance and have the background appear all creamy and out-of-focus due to short DOF. But perhaps a hint of detail in the background might be nice - or a bit more. How do you know what would be the best setting to use?

Given constraints over things you cannot or might not be able to control, such as light, film speed (or sensor ISO) and so on, a tool such as a DOF calculator will let you control precisely how you wish to render your out-of-focus objects.

Experience will be your teacher in terms of what looks best - that's subjective anyway, so as you wish it to be is best. But it is good to be able to seize control when you want to.

I hope you find this helpful.
 
Thanks Wigwam, will need to read that a couple of times I think but really appreciate the time taken to type that post, I'm sure it will help me (y)

Edit
Just followed the link, very interesting thanks..... only trouble is I now need to get my head around hyperfocal distance:bang:

This photography business, just when you think you understand things something else comes along to get you :thinking:
 
Hyperfocal distance is a bit tricky, but it can be explained easily enough. It makes use of the deep DOF that can be found at the higher number f-stops and wide lenses to manipulate where you choose to place the 'near acceptable focus' and 'farthest acceptable focus' for your photo.

Basically, it is a distance, given in feet or meters, beyond which everything from there to infinity will be in acceptably sharp focus.

When you use a tool like DOFMaster (and there are many out there, including software programs and pasteboard wheels you can buy) to determine your DOF, it also tells you the 'hyperfocal distance.'

If you wanted to (and you may not), you could adjust your lens - not to focus on the subject, but to focus at the precise distance you've been given. Once done, if you take the photo (even if it looks blurry in your viewfinder), everything in the foreground of your subject should be in focus, and clear out to infinity.

On older manual focus lenses, this was often printed on the barrel of the lens. That way you could do it without resorting to math or calculators. You'd pick your f-stop, focus, and read the lens markings. It would then show you how to twist the focus to achieve hyperfocal distance focusing.

Here's a good show-and-tell tutorial:

http://www.great-landscape-photography.com/hyperfocal.html

As the link indicates, hyperfocal focusing is not really good for every situation - landscapes come to mind, if there is something of interest in the fore and mid ground distance.

Hyperfocal distance focusing is not used that much since the advent of autofocus lenses - because they do not understand how to intentionally focus at the 'wrong' place to achieve 'acceptable' focus from a given point to infinity.
 
Hyperfocal distance focusing is not used that much since the advent of autofocus lenses - because they do not understand how to intentionally focus at the 'wrong' place to achieve 'acceptable' focus from a given point to infinity.


With you all the way up to this point where I'd have said... it's commonly used by those in the know, but auto-everything can seem to be the answer to everything and so lead to a lack of knowledge of a) its existence, and b) how to apply it with an auto lens

Great explanations though (y)

DD
 
:)
With you all the way up to this point where I'd have said... it's commonly used by those in the know, but auto-everything can seem to be the answer to everything and so lead to a lack of knowledge of a) its existence, and b) how to apply it with an auto lens

Great explanations though (y)

DD

Made even trickier by the complete lack of dof field scales on a lot of modern lenses:bang: Will have to break out the tape measure:D

Once again thanks for all the information and advice, just need to pick up the camera and try and put some of this into practice now.
 
:)

Made even trickier by the complete lack of dof field scales on a lot of modern lenses:bang: Will have to break out the tape measure:D

Once again thanks for all the information and advice, just need to pick up the camera and try and put some of this into practice now.


Actually, there's a good point here

Most cameras now 'know' what lens they have fitted to them and what aperture is set (either by the tog of the camera itself), and the DoF figures used for an accurate Hyperfocal setting are simply maths

The camera is a computer after all, so why haven't the manufacturers added another sub-menu to give you the DoF figures at the given lens/aperture combination? It'd be a doddle surely for them to add such a feature as it's only a spreadsheet as such and easily available online anyway - but not necessarily out in the field - seems like an obvious omission methinks :thinking:

Anyone know Canon/Nikon/Pentax/Oly etc. people to ask why not?
 
Maddog Mark in good point shocker:bonk:

It would be very useful wouldn't it. It could be in one of the deeper menu levels so as not to confuse the likes of me when we first dip our toes into the world of DSLR photography:D.
 
My fading memory is telling there was a film body, possibly Nikon, that did calculate DoF based on two focus points set by the user, but that's possibly 20 years ago now. :thinking:

No, I'm not thinking of the A-Dep mode Canon uses either...
 
Having a DOF scale on the lens would be difficult now as it would be different dependant on the body it was mounted on.

To have the camera calculate the DOF based on lens and f-stop would also be a little difficult given that DOF is more of a subjective value which is based on a circle of confusion and not all manufacturers use, or agree on, the same value.

Until standardisation comes to the front we can all continue squinting.

Bob
 
Many cameras have an instant onboard math-free DOF calculator.

It is called the DOF preview button!:bonk::LOL:
 
To have the camera calculate the DOF based on lens and f-stop would also be a little difficult given that DOF is more of a subjective value which is based on a circle of confusion and not all manufacturers use, or agree on, the same value.

Bob

Ah the circle of confusion... not sure my confusion is circular, I'm well and truly lost, don't recognise any of the scenery round here:LOL:

Many cameras have an instant onboard math-free DOF calculator.

It is called the DOF preview button!:bonk::LOL:

Very true;)
 
DoF calculators are only useful as a rough guide unless you only ever use the lens at infinity.

The given focal length of a lens is only accurate when it's at infinity. The closer you focus the lens the shorter the focal length will get, how much depends on the design of the lens. Macro lenses exhibit this more than a normal lens but it still happens. As far as DoF charts are concerned you'd need to know the exact focal length for a given focal distance before you could get an accurate figure for the hyperfocal point.

Having said that most of the time the charts will be accurate enough and you can always close down another 1/3 just to be on the safe side (y)
 
Actually, there's a good point here

Most cameras now 'know' what lens they have fitted to them and what aperture is set (either by the tog of the camera itself), and the DoF figures used for an accurate Hyperfocal setting are simply maths

The camera is a computer after all, so why haven't the manufacturers added another sub-menu to give you the DoF figures at the given lens/aperture combination? It'd be a doddle surely for them to add such a feature as it's only a spreadsheet as such and easily available online anyway - but not necessarily out in the field - seems like an obvious omission methinks :thinking:

Anyone know Canon/Nikon/Pentax/Oly etc. people to ask why not?

Strangely enough, if one uses a free tool such as 'exiftool' to examine the 'Exif' data on any particular digital image file, one might be shocked to find that indeed the manufacturer does know the hyperfocal distance for the shot having been taken, and some even include the calculated circle of confusion. Why they record this data in the image file and do not make it otherwise available to the photographer is quite beyond me.

[On Exiftool: There are a variety of tools out there, but this one is free, gives COMPLETE information, and works very well. It is a command-line application, however]

http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/
 
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