First time with the Sigma 150 macro adapter lens (on MFT Panny G80 + 12-60 lens)

[Crotal Bell]

Unpacked my Fleabay bargain this evening, looks like it's new so no complaints there.

Unfortunately the wind was gusty and the garden was bug free and the flowers were swirling, but I managed some images for people to view and comment/critique.
All images are hand held. It seemed to focus closest with the lens at 25mm, or was that my imagination?

A little Roman coin, somewhat crusty from 1500 years in the ground and this is the only image I have really worked on. Lifted the shadows and added a tiny bit of contrast and a vary small extra sharpen, and also cropped about 30%. Overall pretty good. I would need a stronger macro for tiny Roman coins methinks but you can see the figure holding the trident, and if more lettering had survived you could clearly read the Emperors name, so it did pretty well.

This image probably shows where this 150 macro will shine, as the nail clipper is about the size of a large Dragonfly, this is the RAW take.

A nut on an old rusty pair of shears, I like the detail on the nut and how you can see the corrosion on the top., Again this image has not been fettled.

Lastly a normal shot of the fence with the macro on. I think on standard shots the macro makes the image a fraction soft, but maybe I didn't keep the camera still ?

 

[woof woof]

Good stuff. Glad you're liking it.

All the other shots look sharp so maybe there was some movement when you took that fence shot?

You have to keep an eye on the shutter speed as with close up stuff any movement could impact on the picture unless the shutter speed can freeze it. I try to stay over 1/100 and if possible higher when doing close up stuff.

 

[Crotal Bell]

Good stuff. Glad you're liking it.

All the other shots look sharp so maybe there was some movement when you took that fence shot?

You have to keep an eye on the shutter speed as with close up stuff any movement could impact on the picture unless the shutter speed can freeze it. I try to stay over 1/100 and if possible higher when doing close up stuff.

Ah you have just exposed my newbie-ness. I was in Aperture Priority. What would you choose for macro ?

 

[LCPete]

Excellent great start
agree with Alan I would go a bit higher on the shutter speed even if you have to raise the ISO a bit
AV is a good choice for macro as you would chose the apeture you want and adjust the ISO to get the shutter speed you want , unless you are using flash

 

[woof woof]

Ah you have just exposed my newbie-ness. I was in Aperture Priority. What would you choose for macro ?

I seem to be happiest in Aperture priority but when the light level drops the camera can select too slow a shutter speed unless you can set a minimum shutter speed but even then that wouldn't suit me as I like to specify different speeds for different subjects so if the shutter speed is too slow I switch to manual and dial in the aperture and shutter speed I want.

With MFT I'd be using an aperture between wide open an possibly f8 depending upon the dof I wanted and what the shutter speed and ISO went too. Shutter speed wise with hand held close up shooting and the subject big in the frame I'd want a relatively fast speed to freeze any subject or camera movement but what that shutter speed is will depend on the focal length of the lens and if I had IS or not and of course if there was any breeze or subject movement. Generally though a double digit shutter speed like 1/60 is possibly going to be too slow for close up hand held shooting.

 

[Crotal Bell]

I seem to be happiest in Aperture priority but when the light level drops the camera can select too slow a shutter speed unless you can set a minimum shutter speed but even then that wouldn't suit me as I like to specify different speeds for different subjects so if the shutter speed is too slow I switch to manual and dial in the aperture and shutter speed I want.

With MFT I'd be using an aperture between wide open an possibly f8 depending upon the dof I wanted and what the shutter speed and ISO went too. Shutter speed wise with hand held close up shooting and the subject big in the frame I'd want a relatively fast speed to freeze any subject or camera movement but what that shutter speed is will depend on the focal length of the lens and if I had IS or not and of course if there was any breeze or subject movement. Generally though a double digit shutter speed like 1/60 is possibly going to be too slow for close up hand held shooting.

I think I'll have a play with manual for a few macro sessions, although so far my practice has been at dusk or on very gloomy days, so not easy for the camera.

 

[Crotal Bell]

Excellent great start
agree with Alan I would go a bit higher on the shutter speed even if you have to raise the ISO a bit
AV is a good choice for macro as you would chose the apeture you want and adjust the ISO to get the shutter speed you want , unless you are using flash

Ah thanks for that, so I wasn't being as daft as I thought I was, as mentioned to Alan, I'm thinking of also trying manual, just as part of the learning curve.

 

[Cobra]

I'm thinking of also trying manual,

Just to complicate matters further,
Some will tell you that manual is the only way to go.
And yet, some will also say, you pay all that money for a camera, why not let it sort itself out?

Generally, AV is good, it allows you to control the depth of field, especially on static subjects,
but for anything likely to move I'll use shutter priority. ( the faster the better,) Maybe with, maybe without a ring flash.

It really is mix and match for different subjects / scenario's.
Just have fun practicing

 

[Crotal Bell]

Just to complicate matters further,
Some will tell you that manual is the only way to go.
And yet, some will also say, you pay all that money for a camera, why not let it sort itself out?

Generally, AV is good, it allows you to control the depth of field, especially on static subjects,
but for anything likely to move I'll use shutter priority. ( the faster the better,) Maybe with, maybe without a ring flash.

It really is mix and match for different subjects / scenario's.
Just have fun practicing

Thanks for that Chris.

 

[Sangoma]

Just to complicate matters further,
Some will tell you that manual is the only way to go.
And yet, some will also say, you pay all that money for a camera, why not let it sort itself out?

Generally, AV is good, it allows you to control the depth of field, especially on static subjects,
but for anything likely to move I'll use shutter priority. ( the faster the better,) Maybe with, maybe without a ring flash.

It really is mix and match for different subjects / scenario's.
Just have fun practicing

That is a very big point in my mind!
I'm completely against telling people "If you don't use manual, you don't know how to use a camera" and consider it to be one of the most unthinking comments that can be made to somebody learning, whether a new learner or an experienced learner on a new topic.
By deciding your needs for a shot and using shutter or aperture priority, you will learn how to use manual.

I have two family members (a 12 year old grand daughter and an 11 year old son, so both similar ages) who get themselves tied in knots insisting to use manual, they forget the composition or to even hold the camera level.
I told my son yesterday it is OK to P in public to get the shots, and we will learn the others at home in the garden, when we can just step out and take it again.

I didn't use the cost of the camera, I pointed out that many very accomplished photographers and experienced engineers had together spent thousands of hours working out how the camera was going to do things for you when you let it.

You last two sentences
"It really is mix and match for different subjects / scenario's.
Just have fun practicing"

Sum it up perfectly

 

[Gav.]

Great start, Keith I can't add anything, the guys have got you covered

 

[Crotal Bell]

That is a very big point in my mind!
I'm completely against telling people "If you don't use manual, you don't know how to use a camera" and consider it to be one of the most unthinking comments that can be made to somebody learning, whether a new learner or an experienced learner on a new topic.
By deciding your needs for a shot and using shutter or aperture priority, you will learn how to use manual.

I have two family members (a 12 year old grand daughter and an 11 year old son, so both similar ages) who get themselves tied in knots insisting to use manual, they forget the composition or to even hold the camera level.
I told my son yesterday it is OK to P in public to get the shots, and we will learn the others at home in the garden, when we can just step out and take it again.

I didn't use the cost of the camera, I pointed out that many very accomplished photographers and experienced engineers had together spent thousands of hours working out how the camera was going to do things for you when you let it.

You last two sentences
"It really is mix and match for different subjects / scenario's.
Just have fun practicing"

Sum it up perfectly

Thanks Steve.

 

[woof woof]

Using Manual in this instance isn't for some mad reason of nostalgia it's to overcome a specific issue. The issue is that when doing something such as close up shooting or even just general shooting using aperture priority when the light level begins to fall the camera may select too slow a shutter speed to either freeze subject or camera movement.

One possible way around this is to switch to manual mode and dial in appropriate aperture and shutter speed settings and let auto ISO take care of the exposure.

In this instance manual mode is IMO the best way forward the only alternative that I can see being to fiddle with minimum shutter speed settings (if your camera has this ability) in aperture or some other mode and that could be fiddlier than just switching to manual and dialling in f8 and 1/160... or whatever.

 

[Cobra]

IMO the best way forward the only alternative that I can see being to fiddle with minimum shutter speed settings (if your camera has this ability) in aperture or some other mode and that could be fiddlier than just switching to manual and dialling in f8 and 1/160... or whatever.

And what is manual apart from "Fiddling" with shutter priority & Aperture priority & ISO the latter, if you aren't careful, leaving it on auto,
you may end up with very noisy images.
As I said, manual has its place ( I always shoot the moon that way because I always have plenty of time to fiddle, as you put it) but its far from the be all and end all of photography, especially macro, and other things that are liable to move.

 

[Gav.]

I think manual has a use where you have flash, as you have control over the light you're 'carrying' but Av Tv would be my choice using natural light.

 

[woof woof]

And what is manual apart from "Fiddling" with shutter priority & Aperture priority & ISO the latter, if you aren't careful, leaving it on auto,
you may end up with very noisy images.
As I said, manual has its place ( I always shoot the moon that way because I always have plenty of time to fiddle, as you put it) but its far from the be all and end all of photography, especially macro, and other things that are liable to move.

I think people are mixing two things here. There's the thought that we should be using manual and if we don't we're not real photographers. That's rather odd. Then there's using manual after deciding it's the best way to do it and that could be quite sensible.

I'll give you two examples but lets keep in mind that the op got a blurry picture, posted above.

1. I'm out and about taking pictures of people and general stuff using aperture priority at f4 to f8 because that's what I want to use and I'm perfectly happy until the light levels start to drop and suddenly even though I have auto ISO selected I'm at 1/60 which is too slow for people pictures and could be too slow for static scenes too. What do I do now? I don't want to switch to f1.2 because I'll have no DoF so my answer is to switch to manual and dial in f4 or f5.6 or f8 and 1/160 and the auto ISO then sets the exposure.

We could switch to shutter priority but then the camera may not select the aperture we want. Or we could maybe set a minimum shutter speed in aperture priority if our camera has that option and that could work but if we have a range of shutter speeds in mind such as 1/160 for people and 1/80 for static shots this seems fiddlier to me than using manual. YMMV.

2. I'm going to take a macro / close up shot and even though the light is generally good as I'm pointing the camera downwards when I look through the EVF and decide that I need f5.6 to get the DoF I want I see the shutter speed is at 1/60 again despite having auto ISO enabled and too slow. So, what do I do? Same issues apply.

So, IMO manual is a good option if we want to retain control of both the aperture (for reasons of DoF) and shutter speed (to freeze subject movement or camera shake.)

Yes, you still need to watch the ISO but often the end result may be acceptable and a noisier picture might be more preferable to one that's showing obvious subject movement or camera shake.

 

[Cobra]

So, IMO manual is a good option if we want to retain control of both the aperture (for reasons of DoF) and shutter speed (to freeze subject movement or camera shake.)

As they say, there is always more than one way to skin a cat, or arrive at the desired result.

And almost as emotive as Canon v Nikon.

 

[woof woof]

As they say, there is always more than one way to skin a cat, or arrive at the desired result.

And almost as emotive as Canon v Nikon.

In this instance I can't think of another way of doing this as quickly, not if we want to use different apertures and shutter speeds.

 

[Cobra]

quickly,

And that's my point, its not quick.
TBH I bet that Keith is thoroughly confused now.
But at least he has a lot of information to think about and to decide what works for him under different scenarios.

 

[Sangoma]

I think people are mixing two things here. There's the thought that we should be using manual and if we don't we're not real photographers. That's rather odd. Then there's using manual after deciding it's the best way to do it and that could be quite sensible.

I'll give you two examples but lets keep in mind that the op got a blurry picture, posted above.

1. I'm out and about taking pictures of people and general stuff using aperture priority at f4 to f8 because that's what I want to use and I'm perfectly happy until the light levels start to drop and suddenly even though I have auto ISO selected I'm at 1/60 which is too slow for people pictures and could be too slow for static scenes too. What do I do now? I don't want to switch to f1.2 because I'll have no DoF so my answer is to switch to manual and dial in f4 or f5.6 or f8 and 1/160 and the auto ISO then sets the exposure.

We could switch to shutter priority but then the camera may not select the aperture we want. Or we could maybe set a minimum shutter speed in aperture priority if our camera has that option and that could work but if we have a range of shutter speeds in mind such as 1/160 for people and 1/80 for static shots this seems fiddlier to me than using manual. YMMV.

2. I'm going to take a macro / close up shot and even though the light is generally good as I'm pointing the camera downwards when I look through the EVF and decide that I need f5.6 to get the DoF I want I see the shutter speed is at 1/60 again despite having auto ISO enabled and too slow. So, what do I do? Same issues apply.

So, IMO manual is a good option if we want to retain control of both the aperture (for reasons of DoF) and shutter speed (to freeze subject movement or camera shake.)

Yes, you still need to watch the ISO but often the end result may be acceptable and a noisier picture might be more preferable to one that's showing obvious subject movement or camera shake.

All true, ant that is pretty similar to how most people would approach it, once they had become familiar with the combinations.
But until a person become familiar with the way it works, P,A or S will in most cases do an OK job, and as the settings are visible at the time of taking the shot, and they are stored in the photo file, that aids the learning process. (I remember taking notes of everything with most photos )


Except that if you set the G80 to A, and the ISO to auto, it will automatically try and keep the shutter speed to a minimum of twice the focal length by increasing the ISO.
You can of course set a max ISO limit as well, then it will warn you, and you have to then decide.


"So, IMO manual is a good option if we want to retain control of both the aperture (for reasons of DoF) and shutter speed (to freeze subject movement or camera shake.)" and if you want to control noise as well?


As for Canon vs Nikon, what is Nikon? Was it supposed to be Canon vs Pentax

 

[Cobra]

As for Canon vs Nikon, what is Nikon? Was it supposed to be Canon vs Pentax

No just canon v canon

 

[woof woof]

And that's my point, its not quick.
TBH I bet that Keith is thoroughly confused now.
But at least he has a lot of information to think about and to decide what works for him under different scenarios.

But is there a quicker way? If there is let me know because this is how I've been doing it (aperture and then manual) and if there's a quicker way I may be missing out.

 

[woof woof]

All true, ant that is pretty similar to how most people would approach it, once they had become familiar with the combinations.
But until a person become familiar with the way it works, P,A or S will in most cases do an OK job, and as the settings are visible at the time of taking the shot, and they are stored in the photo file, that aids the learning process. (I remember taking notes of everything with most photos )


Except that if you set the G80 to A, and the ISO to auto, it will automatically try and keep the shutter speed to a minimum of twice the focal length by increasing the ISO.
You can of course set a max ISO limit as well, then it will warn you, and you have to then decide.


"So, IMO manual is a good option if we want to retain control of both the aperture (for reasons of DoF) and shutter speed (to freeze subject movement or camera shake.)" and if you want to control noise as well?


As for Canon vs Nikon, what is Nikon? Was it supposed to be Canon vs Pentax

Which may well still be useless.

IMO double digit shutter speeds or even a low three digit speed may not be suitable for hand held use for some subjects and circumstances hence my advice above to use aperture priority until falling light levels cause the camera to select too slow a shutter speed for the subject or circumstance and to then switch to manual and select more appropriate aperture and shutter speed settings whilst letting auto ISO balance the exposure.

For example... double digit shutter speeds may be useless for people shots and even a speed of 1/125 or 1/160 may be too slow for a close up picture of a bug or a flower depending upon subject or camera movement or any breeze.

All other ways of doing this are potentially slower, at least in my experience, but good luck and best wishes to those who want to do this another way.

 

[Sangoma]

Which may well still be useless.

IMO double digit shutter speeds or even a low three digit speed may not be suitable for hand held use for some subjects and circumstances hence my advice above to use aperture priority until falling light levels cause the camera to select too slow a shutter speed for the subject or circumstance and to then switch to manual and select more appropriate aperture and shutter speed settings whilst letting auto ISO balance the exposure.

For example... double digit shutter speeds may be useless for people shots and even a speed of 1/125 or 1/160 may be too slow for a close up picture of a bug or a flower depending upon subject or camera movement or any breeze.

All other ways of doing this are potentially slower, at least in my experience, but good luck and best wishes to those who want to do this another way.

But it is in effect doing just as you say
You set the aperture, and you will end up with what should be a fast enough shutter speed, and when the camera gets to 26000 ISO, where are you going to conjure up more light from?

I agree that manual may give you a better balance in some situations, that has never been denied, nor has the desire/need to learn to use manual, however, used in a sensible way, the cameras features can usually give acceptable/good results whilst a person is getting used to the systems and aiming towards being able to use manual when the camera doesn't cope.

If the lens is wide open, and the ISO is at max, you can't just up the shutter speed to stop the flower waving in the wind!

 

[Cobra]

But is there a quicker way?

I told you.
You said faffing about with either aperture OR shutter speed.
That's just one, setting

You then went on to go on about manual, controlling a minimum of 2 settings or maybe 3 if you want to also add iso to the equation.
I know which is faster.

 

[woof woof]

But it is in effect doing just as you say
You set the aperture, and you will end up with what should be a fast enough shutter speed, and when the camera gets to 26000 ISO, where are you going to conjure up more light from?

I agree that manual may give you a better balance in some situations, that has never been denied, nor has the desire/need to learn to use manual, however, used in a sensible way, the cameras features can usually give acceptable/good results whilst a person is getting used to the systems and aiming towards being able to use manual when the camera doesn't cope.

If the lens is wide open, and the ISO is at max, you can't just up the shutter speed to stop the flower waving in the wind!

No it isn't.

Auto ISO sets a relatively slow shutter speed which may be too slow for some uses and shooting at a wider aperture gets you less DoF and it'll be a different picture.

Sorry but I just can't keep trying to explain this so that's me out of this thread. Keith has different view to choose from and can now experiment and make his own mind up.

 

[Sangoma]

No it isn't.

Auto ISO sets a relatively slow shutter speed which may be too slow for some uses and shooting at a wider aperture gets you less DoF and it'll be a different picture.

Sorry but I just can't keep trying to explain this so that's me out of this thread. Keith has different view to choose from and can now experiment and make his own mind up.

I was replying to your reply that said may comment "Except that if you set the G80 to A, and the ISO to auto, it will automatically try and keep the shutter speed to a minimum of twice the focal length by increasing the ISO." may well useless.

Again, agreed normal auto ISO may well set a lower than optimum shutter speed, which is why I pointed out how the G80 works with auto ISO, lens length and shutter speed.
It is not a case of keep trying to explain, it is a case of taking all statements into account, as there won't be any repeat explanations needed then