For those who bake, lightness......

ancient_mariner

ancient_mariner

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I've been making granary type breads using commercial flours for some months now, but the bread is always fairly dense with a texture that's closer to cake than the more open cellular structure of a supermarket bread. I've used a variety of recipes including those from a bread machine (several recipes, and including preparing the dough in the machine, then 2nd kneeding by hand) plus hand-preparing the bread by hand all the way through. I get a decent enough rise, more than doubling dough volume for both first and second rises, and generally the risen dough is stable enough not to collapse when transferred to the oven, sometimes even visibly expanding a little further during baking.

It tastes great, but I can't seem to get a truly fluffy loaf. Are there any tricks or favourite recipes that might help?
 
My wife found the temperature of added water had an effect on the density of the bread produced with our Panasonic breadmaker. She now uses a thermometer and adds water at 25-26C
 
Non white bread I find is often a bit denser. What recipe are you using? something like 500g flour, 7g of salt & yeast?

Warm water may help. Also (although this is with sourdough), I have found using a dutch oven really helps rise in oven and bread is beautiful. I use my le creuset casserole pot for that. Lid on for first 20-25 mins then lid off for rest.
 
Use tepid water, add a small amount of white flour to the mix (my standard wholemeal is 400g of wholemeal with 100g of white). Have you tried using a tray of water in the bottom of the oven during the bake?
 
I have the same issue, even following recipes to the letter the inside of a loaf turns out stodgy. I thought maybe it's the flour I use? Or possibly the area I'm in is colder and getting dough to rise can be a challenge.
 
I would suggest upping the hydration levels, say 600g flour (400g wholemeal, 200g white) to 500ml tepid water, 2 x 5g yeast . Activate the yeast and tepid water, with 1 tsp sugar in a bowl, then when it has a nice head, add to the flour/salt in a larger bowl and knead. As above, put a tray of water in the bottom of the oven.
 
andya700 said:
I would suggest upping the hydration levels, say 600g flour (400g wholemeal, 200g white) to 500ml tepid water, 2 x 5g yeast . Activate the yeast and tepid water, with 1 tsp sugar in a bowl, then when it has a nice head, add to the flour/salt in a larger bowl and knead. As above, put a tray of water in the bottom of the oven.
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Exactly this. Wholemeal flour takes somewhere between a lot more and a lot lot more water than white.
 
Thanks for your thoughts everyone.

A couple of basics: I've upped the yeast content a bit from recommended (2 teaspoons for 500g of flour, rather than 1) using 'rapid breadmaker' yeast and always put a tray of water in the oven.

Hydration. I'm looking for an elastic dough that's soft enough to spread easily when kneeding, but not sticky to the touch. Should it be stickier/wetter? I've used a variety of recipes: the one on the back of the Hovis granary flour says something like 500g flour, 275ml water, 2 tsp yeast, 1/5 tsp salt, 2 tsp sugar, 25g butter. Some recipes using milk powder and oil instead of butter, some add more sugar and some a little more water. The water is always added hand-warm (i.e. not hot or cold). I usually add seeds of some kind (pumpkin, poppy seeds, cumin, caraway) plus often oregano and maybe a small amount of fried onions and/or cheese.

Thinking back, I recall having a slightly better rise using about half & half white flour to granary on one occasion, but it's not been consistent.

Often I use a tin, but sometimes will just lay the dough on a baking try to rise if the dough is a little stiffer. I've noticed that if there's a better rise, the dough will often spread over the edges of the tin, rather than standing up like a Hovis-style loaf.

Baking, best results around 175-180'c in a fan oven with water. At max (around 230-240 degrees) the outside burns too easily.
 
Bread improver.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Thanks for your thoughts everyone.

A couple of basics: I've upped the yeast content a bit from recommended (2 teaspoons for 500g of flour, rather than 1) using 'rapid breadmaker' yeast and always put a tray of water in the oven.

Hydration. I'm looking for an elastic dough that's soft enough to spread easily when kneeding, but not sticky to the touch. Should it be stickier/wetter? I've used a variety of recipes: the one on the back of the Hovis granary flour says something like 500g flour, 275ml water, 2 tsp yeast, 1/5 tsp salt, 2 tsp sugar, 25g butter. Some recipes using milk powder and oil instead of butter, some add more sugar and some a little more water. The water is always added hand-warm (i.e. not hot or cold). I usually add seeds of some kind (pumpkin, poppy seeds, cumin, caraway) plus often oregano and maybe a small amount of fried onions and/or cheese.

Thinking back, I recall having a slightly better rise using about half & half white flour to granary on one occasion, but it's not been consistent.

Often I use a tin, but sometimes will just lay the dough on a baking try to rise if the dough is a little stiffer. I've noticed that if there's a better rise, the dough will often spread over the edges of the tin, rather than standing up like a Hovis-style loaf.

Baking, best results around 175-180'c in a fan oven with water. At max (around 230-240 degrees) the outside burns too easily.
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I would use between 210C to 220C for baking with water in the bottom of the oven.

https://flic.kr/p/dehMfJ
View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/andym42/8026669690/in/album-72157631628201156


https://flic.kr/p/dehMjs
View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/andym42/8026669906/in/album-72157631628201156
 
TBH @andya700 I think it's your dough that is different - it looks altogether more puffed up and at the same time less inclined to softly settle and spread.
 
ancient_mariner said:
TBH @andya700 I think it's your dough that is different - it looks altogether more puffed up and at the same time less inclined to softly settle and spread.
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I do try to put the loaf in a warm place to rise, be it next to a radiator in the Winter, or the South facing kitchen in the Summer (gets to over 40C on the warm days).
 
People who are putting water in the oven - you aren't using cold water, are you?

I used to add water to increase the rise but it was always boiling from the kettle. Wear oven gloves, close the door quickly and be careful! The idea is to get a sudden large amount of steam into the oven early in the bake so it rises before the crust starts to form. I'd also use a very hot oven for the first 10 - 15 mins (maximum and preheated) and then turn down to something sensible so it has a longer bake.
 
I put cold water in a tray before turning the (fan) oven on, and by the time it's at temperature the water is close to boiling & the oven full of vapour - I can feel the wet blast when I open the door. But I don't think water is the oven affects the rise - only the heat transfer, speed of cooking and crust formation. It's a bt like spoiling the vacuum when freeze drying, where there's a greater transfer of heat energy when there's more mass to the vapour around the product.
 
ancient_mariner said:
I put cold water in a tray before turning the (fan) oven on, and by the time it's at temperature the water is close to boiling & the oven full of vapour - I can feel the wet blast when I open the door. But I don't think water is the oven affects the rise - only the heat transfer, speed of cooking and crust formation. It's a bt like spoiling the vacuum when freeze drying, where there's a greater transfer of heat energy when there's more mass to the vapour around the product.
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Interesting.

The fascinating thing about bread is that almost anything works. Some of baking becomes ritual and if you don't do one of the magic steps then it's "different" - but I've never managed to make anything inedible.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Interesting.

The fascinating thing about bread is that almost anything works. Some of baking becomes ritual and if you don't do one of the magic steps then it's "different" - but I've never managed to make anything inedible.
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Same.
Mine rarely turns out as I expect or want, but it's always "Interesting".
Disolve a spoon of Marmite in the water first (The water you're making the dough with.)
Instead of 400ml of water chuck a tin of chopped tomatoes in...let your imagination run wild! I use a bread maker to make the dough and first rise, then shape and bake the old way.

Standard loaf.

20230707_124751.jpg

With dried beetroot powder prior to bakeing.

20230707_121748.jpg

Pizza.

20210828_192856.jpg
 
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Graham W said:
Same.
Mine rarely turns out as I expect or want, but it's always "Interesting".
Disolve a spoon of Marmite in the water first (The water you're making the dough with.)
Instead of 400ml of water chuck a tin of chopped tomatoes in...let your imagination run wild! I use a bread maker to make the dough and first rise, then shape and bake the old way.

Standard loaf.

View attachment 436641

With dried beetroot powder prior to bakeing.

View attachment 436642

Pizza.

View attachment 436643
Click to expand...
Nice idea with the beetroot powder, I have some of that...
 
A tight crumb is usually down to not enough kneading/1st proving time. I use two methods. The first is the standard 65%-68% hydration (depends on your flour and your kitchen) with 7g of quick yeast or 2.5 - 3tsp of dried yeast per 500g of flour (which I prefer). The second method is stretch and fold (see Google) if I'm looking for a crumb with larger holes but it is more time consuming. Steam for the crust but I have never managed to maintain a good crust once the bread has cooled. Anyone know how to?

Milk Loaf.jpg

Malted Seed Baps.jpg
 
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Graham W said:
Same.
Mine rarely turns out as I expect or want, but it's always "Interesting".
Disolve a spoon of Marmite in the water first (The water you're making the dough with.)
Instead of 400ml of water chuck a tin of chopped tomatoes in...let your imagination run wild! I use a bread maker to make the dough and first rise, then shape and bake the old way.

Standard loaf.

View attachment 436641

With dried beetroot powder prior to bakeing.

View attachment 436642

Pizza.

View attachment 436643
Click to expand...
Seriously good Graham.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Tried something completely different this time, following this 2 hour method
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xtj9X1jDc0


I also bought a cheap cast iron dutch oven with was stinky to season (sold pre-seasoned, but I'm not convinced) and worked well. I have a functional white bread recipe now - just need to work on my wholemeal.

View attachment 437045
Click to expand...

That has worked. I did this back in 2017, the cheat sourdough.

https://flic.kr/p/QYNmBf
View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/andym42/32147893116/in/album-72157631628201156
 
Made a 60:40 granary/plain flour loaf with extra ingredients (fried onions, pumpkin and poppy seeds, cumin seeds hand-rolled, olive & sesame oil) using this method again. Not quite so much oven spring, but a lovely soft crumb and a very tasty crust.

Granary.jpg
 
Thanks @ancient_mariner. Yes, in fact we cut them in half so that we can just take what we need from the freezer at any one time (only the two of us). I tend to bake loaves three at a time, Baps (brown and White) 18 - 20 at a time and Panini using the stretch and fold method (gives a much holier(?) crumb). The panini don't freeze as well as the loaves/ baps but are still ok. I don't know why.
 
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Stretch and fold is the method I'm using right now for everything including my long cold prove bread. It seems to give a lighter, moister crumb with a high hydration dough.
 
Out of interest, what's the difference in baking time if I decide to make, say 8 rolls, rather than a loaf. My normal bake for the loaf is 30 minutes.
 
That's a difficult question Steve. It would depend on your weight of dough and its hydration etc. but somewhere around 8 to 12 mins would be my best guess. However, my best friend is a cooking thermometer. Bread is about ready when the internal temp. reaches about 196 - 200 degrees Fahrenheit. They are not expensive and if you check the temp at around 8 or so mins, you can easily judge when your rolls are done.
 
The best bread I've ever made was when I ran out of my usual bread flour and had to top it up with whatever I had in the cupboard. I'm going to do that again when I next make some.
 
The seeded brown were made in bread pans which effectively shape your loaf. (see Amazon) The fruit bread was tensioned as @ancient_mariner mentions but by forming a ball with cupped hands so that you stretch the top surface as you push your hands underneath the ball. Not a very good description but Google it. It helps if your dough is not too wet.
 
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