Hydrogen cars - end of life in USA

Mr Bump

Mr Bump

From under the bridge
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Yes
Not surprising, stupid alternative to EV

The oil industry giant cited “supply complications and other external market factors” in making the decision. “After temporary closure of five of its eight light-duty stations,
(Shell) made the decision to exit the hydrogen light-duty passenger vehicle fueling market in California,
 
UK as well

A hydrogen charging pump at Shell Plc's filling station in Cobham, UK. Shell Plc quietly shut down two UK hydrogen filling stations earlier this year as electric vehicles became the preferred way to cut greenhouse gas emissions on the roads.
 
No, EV is the stupidity. It just can not work in its current form as a replacement for ICE, not for the mass of people. Even if the environmental argument were to hold up, and I don't believe it does, not when you look at the whole chain, there are just too many challenges including the obvious ones to grid capacity and charging difficulties which are nowhere near to being addressed.

Fans of EV would likely agree with the phrase "follow the science" and if EV is the answer then it's arguably a very silly question from every standpoint, environmental, infrastructure, grid, recycling, end of life, health and safety and exploitation. But like with other things these days the decision has been made and no matter how silly the decision may look and no matter the merits of any alternative it's now a matter of vested interest, politics, control and an unwillingness to lose face. It's not follow the science it's follow the money and the power and influence.
 
woof woof said:
No, EV is the stupidity. It just can not work in its current form as a replacement for ICE, not for the mass of people. Even if the environmental argument were to hold up, and I don't believe it does, not when you look at the whole chain, there are just too many challenges including the obvious ones to grid capacity and charging difficulties which are nowhere near to being addressed.

Fans of EV would likely agree with the phrase "follow the science" and if EV is the answer then it's arguably a very silly question from every standpoint, environmental, infrastructure, grid, recycling, end of life, health and safety and exploitation. But like with other things these days the decision has been made and no matter how silly the decision may look and no matter the merits of any alternative it's now a matter of vested interest, politics, control and an unwillingness to lose face. It's not follow the science it's follow the money and the power and influence.
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If everyone switched to EV tomorrow fair enough. But it will continue to be gradual and things will improve. All new builds could have charging points. There could be charging along streets, even flats could have them installed too in car parks there. May would charge at night when there is less demand on the network.

But, I am not stuck on EV, if there is a better alternative like hydrogen then great. As we stand its the only viable alternative to ICE.
 
There are other alternatives to ICE, which is having lifestyles that aren’t totally dependent on ICEs. So new build homes near services and employment.
 
cambsno said:
If everyone switched to EV tomorrow fair enough. But it will continue to be gradual and things will improve. All new builds could have charging points. There could be charging along streets, even flats could have them installed too in car parks there. May would charge at night when there is less demand on the network.

But, I am not stuck on EV, if there is a better alternative like hydrogen then great. As we stand its the only viable alternative to ICE.
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They are doing a 'regeneration' project not far from me. The area did need something doing I agree with that!

Here is the area with 826 number 1, 2 & 3 bedroom homes & 1303 student accommodations.

With basically no extra parking - but they are going to turning it into a ''liveable neighbourhood'' ie 15 minute city :)


BG%20Plot%20Plan_plot%20numbers_update%2024.jpg
 
Hydrogen is only clean at point of use, in a similar way to electric cars.
But.
Both forms of fuel are evolving and at some future point both will be genuinely clean. I see a future for both systems, electric in cars and hydrogen in larger commercial vehicles. They can coexist but fossil fuels cannot continue to be used.
 
woof woof said:
No, EV is the stupidity. It just can not work in its current form as a replacement for ICE, not for the mass of people. Even if the environmental argument were to hold up, and I don't believe it does, not when you look at the whole chain, there are just too many challenges including the obvious ones to grid capacity and charging difficulties which are nowhere near to being addressed.
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That's so far off the mark it's almost the exact opposite of what's actually true.
EV's are ideal as a replacement for ICE for "the mass of people" since the mass of people simply do not drive very long distances. The average UK daily distance driven domestically is just 9 miles, 9 miles! Average joe public can buy an EV and never ever have to use the public charging network or ever come close to running out of juice. For anyone who can't have a home charger, plug into a DC charger for 45 minutes once a month while you shop and you're off again.

You talk about grid capacity but that's almost exclusively a UK issue though it's more infrastructure and not actual capacity since we have plenty of that. America and Europe have no capcity issues and it's far easier there to get fast home charging thanks to the UK's 1940's descision to go cheap on house wiring.

Can the UK grid cope with the extra demand from electric cars? | National Grid Group

As electric vehicles (EVs) become more widespread, this is one of the most common questions we’re asked. Find out what we're doing to make sure we're ready.
www.nationalgrid.com www.nationalgrid.com
 
Pound Coin said:
There are other alternatives to ICE, which is having lifestyles that aren’t totally dependent on ICEs. So new build homes near services and employment.
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Do what they do in Vienna and other cities. Have a good pubic transport system which is very cheap, not a rip off like here. Guess what, people use it.

The only issue is that the tube is packed at certain parts of the day so reducing prices makes it worse, so need even more busses and other systems.
 

German car dealers say demand drops for private e-cars, rebounds for combustion engines​




Clean Energy Wire​

Demand for purely battery-electric vehicles (BEV) dropped dramatically in Germany during the first half of 2024 and the country’s automotive sector is bracing for a gloomy full year as high prices and leasing rates hamper business. According to automotive industry association Zentralverband Deutsches Kraftfahrzeuggewerbe (ZDK), which carried out a recent survey of 348 car dealerships, BEV orders from private customers fell by 47 percent in the first six months compared to the same period last year, while demand for diesel and gasoline engines increased by 24 percent. Industry representatives therefore are calling for new market incentives and improved charging infrastructure to boost e-mobility.
The situation was less severe in the commercial sector, which saw BEV orders fall by 41 percent and plug-in hybrids by 33 percent, while orders for diesel and gasoline engines rose by 20 percent, the ZDK survey found. However, things look bleak for the year as a whole, with 91 percent of respondents rating the order situation for BEVs from private customers as “very bad" or “bad.”
“The significant decline in orders for BEV and PHEV (plug-in hybrid electric vehicles) in the first half of the year makes it clear how difficult the situation is in car dealerships,” said ZDK president Arne Joswig. “And the expectations for the year as a whole also give little hope that anything will change." High prices and leasing rates are seen as a major obstacle to the ramp-up of e-mobility, combined with expected low residual values and difficult-to-calculate resale values, he argued. "We therefore expect manufacturers to create market incentives now through low prices and low leasing rates,” Joswig added.
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German car dealers say demand drops for private e-cars, rebounds for combustion engines

www.cleanenergywire.org www.cleanenergywire.org
 
A friend of ours got a VERY good price on a Merc EV a year or so ago - since they were having huge problems sourcing chips to build new ones, they were selling off their demonstrator fleet at a massive discount.
Mrs Nod tells me that some of the newer iPaces have a reduced spec for the same reason - no chips.
 
Steep said:
"91 percent of respondents rating the order situation for BEVs from private customers as “very bad" or “bad.”"

So orders falling because the cars are not available quickly enough.
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The way that I read it is that it is the dealers who are saying that the order situation from customers is bad / very bad. The survey was taken from dealerships, not consumers. The article mentions reasons for the decline in orders including financial concerns.
 
Clive K said:
The way that I read it is that it is the dealers who are saying that the order situation from customers is bad / very bad. The survey was taken from dealerships, not consumers. The article mentions reasons for the decline in orders including financial concerns.
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You're right, sorry.
 
Whenever anyone mentions a hydrogen powered vehicle, of any sort, mental images of the airship Hindenberg often arise for many!:eek::puke:


Image-.jpg
 
Can't say it did not cross my mind but hydrogen is no more dangerous than petrol and filling stations would be regulated in the same way.
 
Steep said:
Can't say it did not cross my mind but hydrogen is no more dangerous than petrol and filling stations would be regulated in the same way.
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very energy intensive to make though as well, unlike renewable electricity which truly is the future
 
Mr Bump said:
very energy intensive to make though as well, unlike renewable electricity which truly is the future
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Yes. A long, long time in the future. Which is why countries like France & Germany are amending their targets to meet green energy production. Reality is setting in at last.
 
Clive K said:
Yes. A long, long time in the future. Which is why countries like France & Germany are amending their targets to meet green energy production. Reality is setting in at last.
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green energy from wind and solar just for starters is enough to power the entire world when scaled up
also we now have HVDC for 3,000 miles (4,800 km) of cross-country transmission so we truly can transfer energy from one part of the globe to another in real time.

just look at the UK today at 2pm almost 50% of all our power is super green :)

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Clive K said:
Try checking again on a windless night.
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Don't get too many windless nights though do we? and storage systems will take care of those. All a wind generator needs is enough to get it moving, even slowly they will generate power. Here in the North of Scotland the wind farms are often taken out of the grid because they produce too much power.
 
Steep said:
Don't get too many windless nights though do we? and storage systems will take care of those. All a wind generator needs is enough to get it moving, even slowly they will generate power. Here in the North of Scotland the wind farms are often taken out of the grid because they produce too much power.
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So why are France and Germany changing their stance on green energy? Germany has also reversed its planned abolition of nuclear plants and is now accepting tenders for expanding the number.

The reason is that the targets are unrealistic and are causing problems for industry and employment as well as higher utility prices which impact on the popularity or not of Governments.

And, if wind farms are often taken out of the grid, as happens in France too, the question remains as whether they are actually required? Emergency back up maybe. But not 100% reliable sources of electricity. They are however reliable sources of income for land owners and planning officials.
 
Clive K said:
So why are France and Germany changing their stance on green energy? Germany has also reversed its planned abolition of nuclear plants and is now accepting tenders for expanding the number.

The reason is that the targets are unrealistic and are causing problems for industry and employment as well as higher utility prices which impact on the popularity or not of Governments.

And, if wind farms are often taken out of the grid, as happens in France too, the question remains as whether they are actually required? Emergency back up maybe. But not 100% reliable sources of electricity. They are however reliable sources of income for land owners and planning officials.
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Reason is Politics, short term gain in votes over long term save the planet.
 
Steep said:
Reason is Politics, short term gain in votes over long term save the planet.
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I agree also the UK does have exceptional access to wind power with its location, its a no brainer for us regardless of politics so we are acting a bit different
we are building also another new nuclear power station
not sure how much base load it will add but i suspect maybe another 5 % and with the other renewable we will kick fossil firmly in the teeth
 
Chatting to the sales manager in a local car sales today, manufacturers are slowing delivery of ice cars to try and force buyers into evs, but customers are resisting, evs expensive and unwanted, he says customers are paying the balloon payments and keeping their cars longer, manufacturers worrying about the UK governments intention to fine them and hoping to force buyers into solving this.
 
That's really the one major factor holding back EV sales, initial price. It's all very well telling someone that their car will cost less over it's lifespan but the high purchase price is still a big hurdle. I suspect Hydrogen car sales would have the same problems if they ever take off.
 
mj4456 said:
Chatting to the sales manager in a local car sales today, manufacturers are slowing delivery of ice cars to try and force buyers into evs, but customers are resisting, evs expensive and unwanted, he says customers are paying the balloon payments and keeping their cars longer, manufacturers worrying about the UK governments intention to fine them and hoping to force buyers into solving this.
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I don't believe that, bottom line is if a say ford dealer sells EVs and ICE and people buy there EVS instead of ICE they make money on different models.
The reality is some legacy car makers (ICE) don't have decent EVs so they are simply out of the market and have sour grapes.

Car makers need to have good EVs and good ICE on the forecourt and let customers make the choice?
 
Manufacturers need to sell the requisite number of evs to prevent fines first and foremost, they’d have to sell a huge number of ice cars to offset the fines, not going to happen, that’s why meant marques are now ev only.
Believe me or not, no skin off my nose.
 
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