Idiots Guide to Medium Format?

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percymon

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As per the title can anyone point me in the dircetion of one or two websites that explain medium format in its simplest form, more specifically the Mamiya 645 or Bronica ETRS cameras and what i do and don't need to buy ?

Why ? - well on paper (or on ebay :wacky: ) i think i could dabble with a 645/ETRS and one/two lenses for maybe £150, then sell on for £75 worst case having said i've tired it, or maybe fall in love with it.

I'm not doing my own processing, so what i really need to know is what are the basic components to buy (differences in bodies, complexity of ISO, aperature, shutter settings, film backs, prisms etc) and what goes wrong / wear out (bellows ?, seals ?) etc ?


Or should i just buy a Lubitel and give it a go for even less ??

Thanks
 
Buy an all manual camera...for the full experience
Medium Format is 120 roll film, the size of each frame depends on the camera.
Roughly... a 645 camera captures a frame (metric) 60mm x 45mm, a 6x6 camera = 60mm x 60mm, 6x9.....you get the picture.
6x6 is not exactly 60x60, it's 56 x 56 or 2 1/4 inch, but who's gonna argue about a few mm.
The iso is whatever rating the film is you put in it.
Chances are the camera you buy won't be new, it could be a number of years old, assuming it is operational the first thing to check are the light seals.
After that it depends which camera and the weakness found over the years, bear in mind they aren't dslr's, they were built to last.
I was using a 50 year old Bronica EC up until a couple of weeks ago, it had worked fine for 2 years but in the end needed some tlc after developing a few light leaks.
1. choose you're format, 6x6 645 6x7 6x9, I say 6x6, but I'm biased.
2. decide a budget and ask here for candidates.
3. decide if you can shoot with a lightmeter.
 
Thanks joxby

My budget is probably around £150 for body, lens and back

Happy with 6x4.5 format i think

Mamiya 645 seems to have an array of models, assume Pro TL is probably the one to go for as it appears to be a later model than the M and J ??

Bronica ETRS seems a bit cheaper than the Mamiyas and appear from what i can see online to be slightly better condition than the Mamiyas.



Bronica ETRS seems favourite at present, but i await views on whether the Mamiya is better quality !


I know they are old, and probably knowing me i'd buy a bit of trouble, but Yashica MAT124G are peanuts on ebay, but maybe its a better place to start ????



Metering - i'll use the Canon 5d as a starting point, shoot coincident test shots to see where i need to adjust
 
percymon said:
Metering - i'll use the Canon 5d as a starting point, shoot coincident test shots to see where i need to adjust
Click to expand...

I tried this for a while with a DSLR and found my 20 quid Sangamo Weston meter was more accurate (Particularly as it measured incident light) it was shocking to learn just how wrong Matrix metering was.
 
There's a useful link on the American Mamiya website showing the differences between their cameras and when they were introduced...clicky.

I currently have a 645 Pro TL and a 7II, but in the past I've had RB67 ProSD and C330F, so I'm quite biased towards Mamiya. The 645 Super, Pro and Pro TL feel a bit plasticy but in practice they have been as tough as old boots.

I briefly owned a Bronica ETRSi, which feels a lot more sturdy than the Mamiya but I didn't get on with the handling, nothing wrong with it, just personal preference.
 
nice one cherryrig, bookmarked for later reading.
 
percymon said:
Thanks joxby

My budget is probably around £150 for body, lens and back

Happy with 6x4.5 format i think

Mamiya 645 seems to have an array of models, assume Pro TL is probably the one to go for as it appears to be a later model than the M and J ??

Bronica ETRS seems a bit cheaper than the Mamiyas and appear from what i can see online to be slightly better condition than the Mamiyas.



Bronica ETRS seems favourite at present, but i await views on whether the Mamiya is better quality !


I know they are old, and probably knowing me i'd buy a bit of trouble, but Yashica MAT124G are peanuts on ebay, but maybe its a better place to start ????



Metering - i'll use the Canon 5d as a starting point, shoot coincident test shots to see where i need to adjust
Click to expand...


A pro TL has metering, or at least you can get a head for it, I think you'll get better condition kit if you go for that rather than the J's/1000's.
I had a Mam 645 super, liked the camera but not 645 format, and to be honest I prefered using the ancient Bronica EC without all the motorwinder/metered head gizmos, it was better built, very little plastic and more interesting to use.
There's nothing to choose between the quality of the glass from Mamiya and Bronica, currently I'm using a Mam 6 rangefinder, so there's no brand loyalty, I just prefered the Bronica.
You could do worse than a YashicaMat, it's really all about condition and function, great TLR, 6X6 not 645 ya know.
Mamiya's TLR's are pretty good too, they make a few lenses for the C330, the only TLR to have interchangeable lenses I think, might be more expensive though.
 
OneTen said:
There's a useful link on the American Mamiya website showing the differences between their cameras and when they were introduced...clicky.

I currently have a 645 Pro TL and a 7II, but in the past I've had RB67 ProSD and C330F, so I'm quite biased towards Mamiya. The 645 Super, Pro and Pro TL feel a bit plasticy but in practice they have been as tough as old boots.

I briefly owned a Bronica ETRSi, which feels a lot more sturdy than the Mamiya but I didn't get on with the handling, nothing wrong with it, just personal preference.
Click to expand...

Excellent link (y)(y) - some of those are as old an me !

very useful to get a better idea of the age of potential buys and the model numbers to look out for (y)
 
Well after some more reading and looking around the net at prices it looks like my options are..

Mamiya

645J or a more heavily used Pro or Super - Earlier models have some appeal in appearance and nostalgia, but are getting so old i might buy trouble. Newer versions, even the 645E are too exensive at present, i'm only exploring the format at the moment !

RB and RZ ranges too expensive.


Bronica

ETR-S within budget and looking a good buy to be honest. Si too expensive, as is the SQ range.



Other options such as the C330f or s TLR i'm still open minded to - look better on the bookshelf lol!!


Off to Chester this afternoon - not going to find many if any MF camera in the shops, but at least i can have a chat with the knowledgeable guys in my usual shop; and there's a few charity shops that might be worth a look (you never know !)
 
I don't think it will make any difference at all which 6*45 you end up with. They all had toys/fucntions added as the models evolved but even the tip top jobbies are going to be so antiquated compared to a digi camera that it makes no odds. I'd be happy with any of the bronnys or mamiyas and would be swayed far more by any lenses or other bits that were in the kit. :)
 
Well the rip round Chester resulted in finding a few overpriced Bronica lenses, and a single Mamiya 120 back - no bodies to look at or handle. On shop said they get them occassionally, the other had just sold one M645 but said they normally turn them away.

So whatever i buy looks like its going to be unseen, whether via ebay, ffordes, fotofixuk or elsewhere !
 
Or if you fancy a trip to Manchester there is a shop called The Real Camera Shop. They have t'interweb site but they don't list stock on it. They are always worth a call though.

In fact they also have an ebay shop!
 
No mention anywhere off the Contax 645.........I upgraded from my mamiya RZ with a full set of lenses to one of these when my RZ was stolen while I was working on the Millenium Stadium project just as it was being completed.

The Zeiss lenses for the Contax are sharper than any of the film lenses from the same maker - ie Zeiss lenses for Hasselblad or Rollei are actually pretty soft. The new Zeiss lenses for the Contax knock spots off them all (notice that the new Hasselblad lenses are Fuji, not Zeiss, especially the zooms).

The chap who put me onto the Contax was the guy from Leaf digital backs - the hasselblad lenses were so soft he wouldn't demo his Leaf back using them.....but the Contax lenses were designed and built for digital and so they are all Apochromatic lenses, even though they are not billed as such.

The difference? There is more focus latitude on film that with digital - digi has to have all the colours foccussed to the same distance. On film this doesn't have to happen.

Contax 645 lenses will produce sharper, larger enlargements than even my old Mamiya RZ could......fact. I have been using one for critical advertising shoots since I replaced that stolen gear. Absolutely stunning camera and lenses - and very easy to use. The metering prism is also very accurate on evaluative. The spot meter is as good as a hand held spot meter - and there is an inbuilt flash meter too. It is just such an easy MF camera to use. With the waist level finder - you still have metering. Not many cameras can offer you that facility.

Other benefits:
film backs/inserts that take both 120 and 220 film (just turn the film plate round for which you want to use).

Internal focus lenses - and all are at least one stop faster than the others makers equivalent - eg Hasselblad at f4 the Contax will be f2.8 - and lighter, crisper and being internal focus better handling. The extra stop means your focus screen is MUCH brighter, making focus more accurate and easier.

Stunning and very happy with it - and I tried all the others before plumping, including a full hasselblad kit, it was built nicely, like a Swiss watch, but the handling was like a shoebox with a telescope stuck on the front. I had a focal plane shutter one and a leaf shutterone to try before replacing the outfit.

I tried the Rollei 6006 and 6008 too - glorious build quality, clever design features, but you could use it to anchor the Queen Mary - it is a studio camera really, likewise the Mamiya, which is why I was looking for something lighter but witht he same quality. Nothing came near the Contax for results or handling and ease of use. So I lashed out over £15,000 for a replacement outfit - and am glad I did. The 35mm lens was over £3000 on its own. But what a lens - as good as only a Biogon can be.

You will get this kind of kit for next to nothing nowadays - cheapest and best digital camera out there, just get the folm scanned at time of processing and you come home with a lovely DVD of hi-res scans that digi users can only dream of, together with a set of prints for reference and a set of negatives/trannies that have been proven to archive for hundreds of years....if you keep them properly. :razz:
 
The contax 645 would be my first choice of outfit too but there is no way one's going to turn up on this budget. It's holding it's value better that any of the other systems on the SH market, and with good reason too.

For what it's worth, the advice from calumet about what flavour Leaf back to get was to avoid Contax and go with the Mamiya AFD. I preferred the Contax but got some good advice to go with my head and not my heart. When there's a sudden need to replace or buy something for a shoot, the mamiya item will be off the shelf, where as the Contax item could be very hard to track down.

Still want one though. :D
 
Aha, but I have a full set of lenses - and flash to use on location or in the studio (old Bowens Prolites with the switchmode transformers, so I canuse a cheap leisure 12v battery, like for a caravan, and away I go, anywhere I want - instant generators for less than the price of a good meal out! With the slave system built in, they can be self contained and worked at about 50m from each other in daylight - no problem! Modern generators are just the same thing with a built in battery. If I got some plywood out, I could knock up a case to house the whole thing and carry it about in one piece too. I don't mind crocodile clips and a bit of cable!
 
AliB said:
Or if you fancy a trip to Manchester there is a shop called The Real Camera Shop. They have t'interweb site but they don't list stock on it. They are always worth a call though.

In fact they also have an ebay shop!
Click to expand...

Cheers for that - will go have a look.
 
Deed is done - after watching ebay, making a few offers on ETRS's i found ETR-Si's kit at both mifsuds and mxvphotographic.

So ETR-Si with 75mm std f2.8 lens, 120 Ei back and WLF , all boxed - serviced with 12 months warranty for £188. Arriving Tuesday :D

Will look out for a metered AEII prism now


Guy from MXV was great on the phone, very helpful / knowledgeable and had the gear in his hand to describe the condition etc. (y)
 
Congrats, sounds like a great place to start and a great bit of kit.

It's really probably not worth getting a metered prism for it though unless you need it to be the most versatile camera possible. If you've bought it to offer that totally different way of working to digi kit that you've already got, then the WLF is the one you want anyway. (y)
 
percymon said:
Deed is done - after watching ebay, making a few offers on ETRS's i found ETR-Si's kit at both mifsuds and mxvphotographic.

So ETR-Si with 75mm std f2.8 lens, 120 Ei back and WLF , all boxed - serviced with 12 months warranty for £188. Arriving Tuesday :D

Will look out for a metered AEII prism now


Guy from MXV was great on the phone, very helpful / knowledgeable and had the gear in his hand to describe the condition etc. (y)
Click to expand...


Bugger the metered prism, you don't need it, wlf are bodacious, the screen you always wanted *with LIVE VIEW* on you're dslr has actually been around for :thinking: a century..
Time to slow things right down to component steps.

buy a 50 instead :)
 
Lol joxby :LOL:

slow things down, it'll take me a week to figure out all the knobs and whistles ;)

Downloaded the manual from 2 sources so i've got a fighting chance :thinking::thinking:

Looking for a light meter now, although i did find good info on working exposure out by eye (sunny, cloudy, overcast etc) and using the supposed EV value to give the required aperture/shtter settings (tables about 3/4 down the page).

http://www.photoethnography.com/Cla...meset.html?lightmeters-classic.html~mainFrame


I shall experiment with the film and digital Canon SLRs tonight to see how these values translate in reality !
 
Not had chance to test the rough settings against my EOSs yet, but i picked up a Weston Master V for £5.50 on a certain auction site last night so i should be covere all ways now :D

Just waiting for the courier to deliver the Brony now :clap::clap:
 
Its arrived :clap: - four mint boxes, all well wrapped n packaged. Contents are absolute mint, i havent found a mark on anything yet (bar a faint rub mark on the plastic viewfinder cap). Well done to the guys at mxvphotographic - brilliant price, great delivery service and top notch kit (certainly much better than i was expecting even if they are critical with their assessment).

Just got to figure out how to fire the shutter without a film in - back to the manual !
 
percymon said:
Its arrived :clap: - four mint boxes, all well wrapped n packaged. Contents are absolute mint, i havent found a mark on anything yet (bar a faint rub mark on the plastic viewfinder cap). Well done to the guys at mxvphotographic - brilliant price, great delivery service and top notch kit (certainly much better than i was expecting even if they are critical with their assessment).

Just got to figure out how to fire the shutter without a film in - back to the manual !
Click to expand...

I know I know!!!!

Dry Firing the Camera
Test firing the camera without film loaded is done a certain way. Use the Multiple Exposure control on the side of the camera shown below. Flip it down so that the red dot is shown, this tells you that multiple exposure is engaged and the film will not be advanced until released.

This now allows you to fire the shutter and test the opertion of the camera for shutter speed accuracy or flash sync. Of course, the dark slide should be removed from the filmback, as per the first tip at the top of the page.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks cherryrig - i found the info in the downloaded manual, but not int he one that came with the camera - seems they had a few versions of the manual since i know have three variants !


Anyone any idea if you can tell the age from the serial numbers - if anyone knows when there's was originally purchased it would be nice to compare notes so i can find the exact age of mine ;)
 
joxby said:
Buy an all manual camera...for the full experience
Medium Format is 120 roll film, the size of each frame depends on the camera.
Roughly... a 645 camera captures a frame (metric) 60mm x 45mm, a 6x6 camera = 60mm x 60mm, 6x9.....you get the picture.
6x6 is not exactly 60x60, it's 56 x 56 or 2 1/4 inch, but who's gonna argue about a few mm.
The iso is whatever rating the film is you put in it.
Chances are the camera you buy won't be new, it could be a number of years old, assuming it is operational the first thing to check are the light seals.
After that it depends which camera and the weakness found over the years, bear in mind they aren't dslr's, they were built to last.
I was using a 50 year old Bronica EC up until a couple of weeks ago, it had worked fine for 2 years but in the end needed some tlc after developing a few light leaks.
1. choose you're format, 6x6 645 6x7 6x9, I say 6x6, but I'm biased.
2. decide a budget and ask here for candidates.
3. decide if you can shoot with a lightmeter.
Click to expand...

Thanks, you explained ''allot'' so clearly and simply.
 
Lol!!

there are a lot more experiened people on here than me Alex - i've been a digital man for the last 6 years and a rare picture taker before that !. The price of film cameras has got me enthusiastic in film again, a EOS30 +grip from ebay for £50 last month, and the Bronica via mxv this.

I'm finding the Broni a bit of a challengwe to remember to do everything thats normally done for you nowadays, but absolutely loving the experience and the completely different handling of a MF camera. For the outlay i figured if i get bored i'll get most of my money back selling on ebay, so its a cheap trial in my opinion.

Its amazing the help you get on this forum, joxby in particular during my search for a MF camera .
 
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