Camera clubs and competitions

Ed Sutton said:
Finding like-minded folk has always been my problem
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Tony Wilson said:
The smaller the attendance the bigger the history. There were 12 people at the last supper. Half a dozen at Kitty Hawk. Archimedes was on his own in the bath.
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I've been a member of a few local camera clubs over the years.
Although I am not a huge fan of competitions, I do value the critique some of the judges give - some I totally disagree with.
All-in-All, I think the competitions have made me a better photographer.

Also, the buzz of winning competitions is second only to being out taking the winning images.
Receiving the Scottish Photographic Federation's award for the Best Landscape 2023 was the icing on the cake for me
 
Ed Sutton said:
Finding like-minded folk has always been my problem. Not just when it comes to photography! :D
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After too many years on the planet I've come to the conclusion that no one has a mind like mine :LOL: :geek:
 
stumac said:
Having to stick to the "rules"which every comp insists on simply sucks the creativity out of some people ." Ohh you can't enter that , the highlights are blown " or "that's just slightly off the rule of thirds it won't score well" or "hey the leading lines don't lead well" YAWN !!!! ....I've saw some amazingly creative photographers get destroyed by camera clubs and comps as they are told they can't shoot a certain way because it doesn't follow the rules etc
I've only went to 2 camera clubs and on both occasions before I got asked what my name was I got asked what camera brand I use which then lead to a debate on why the other brand is better ... absolutely soul destroying...I'll never step foot in one again.
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I know someone who was a club secretary many years ago and he had a note book of judges preferences, he would pre-select photos from members based on judges biases so that they stood a better chance of winning as a club :rolleyes:
 
Ed Sutton said:
Good man! :ROFLMAO:
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and this is the problem with 'judging' in the last comp I submitted a picture of a side of a building :oops: :$ - imo it was a very nice picture of a side of a building, but the judge couldn't get over the fact it was a picture of a side of a building. The judge perked up when he saw a picture of a train, suffice to say that picture did well ;)
Harlequin565 said:
I guess what I'm saying isn't that "clubs need to be like this", but if your local club is rubbish because of reasons, consider starting something that you think is worthwhile. All you need is half a dozen like minded folks and you're on your way. In today's social media climate, it shouldn't be that hard. These guys did it with no experience, and just "love" for the art. Which is, as I understand it, the literal translation of [French] amateur. Online groups are certainly helpful, but there's nothing quite like meeting in-person and having a pint with someone who has the same hobby as you.
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Harlequin565 said:
I guess what I'm saying isn't that "clubs need to be like this", but if your local club is rubbish because of reasons, consider starting something that you think is worthwhile. All you need is half a dozen like minded folks and you're on your way. In today's social media climate, it shouldn't be that hard. These guys did it with no experience, and just "love" for the art. Which is, as I understand it, the literal translation of [French] amateur. Online groups are certainly helpful, but there's nothing quite like meeting in-person and having a pint with someone who has the same hobby as you.
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What we've done well at my club (and I've been part of it) is the introduction of interest groups - small groups within the club who have their own zoom meet ups, and days out/ photowalks. We have landscape, street and portrait - and a more ad-doc photoshop group. Any club member can participate or create their own group. It's breathed new life into the club and the feedback from members since before we started the groups have been great. This is all in addition to the usual club programme and we've had people join just for the interest groups and see them less so on the usual club nights. The interest group events are very regular.
The club gives a bit of structure and support for this to happen. While the 'club' is the central meeting point (the glue), there has been a small shift of where the activity is taking place

On the other hand there is a local facebook photography meetup group - it's mostly a facebook group where people share photos and there is a local meetup in a pub once a month for a chat. I've gone twice and it's as dull as dishwater :D
 
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sirch said:
I know someone who was a club secretary many years ago and he had a note book of judges preferences, he would pre-select photos from members based on judges biases so that they stood a better chance of winning as a club :rolleyes:
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Thats fairly normal. Happened a lot in the clubs Ive been in.
 
benc98 said:
and this is the problem with 'judging' in the last comp I submitted a picture of a side of a building :oops: :$ - imo it was a very nice picture of a side of a building, but the judge couldn't get over the fact it was a picture of a side of a building. The judge perked up when he saw a picture of a train, suffice to say that picture did well ;)
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Back in the early 80s I used to go to the local camera clubs annual exhibition and the same subjects appeared every year. I stopped bothering for almost thirty years before going back. It was like I'd not missed a single year. The same set of subjects on show. Photographed the same ways. Could almost have been the same photos. :LOL:
 
Ed Sutton said:
Are competitions the best way of evaluating photographs?
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Not as existential a question as it might appear.

If we know what the judge is looking for; then a competition entry is the same as many other photography tasks, it’s simply ‘shooting to a brief’.

I appreciate that’s not everyone’s idea of fun (I enjoy a brief, but hate competitions as the brief is often terrible)

I regularly attend an event as the ‘photographer’, and one of the competitions during the event is a live photo competition, I’d much rather shoot the events than enter the comp though. But honestly, the competition winners will produce images ‘better’ than mine, however, they might shoot 1 ‘awesome’ image on the day, where I’ll shoot hundreds of ‘very good’ images, and maybe a few dozen ‘great’ ones*.

*obviously the organisers opinion not mine :)
 
sirch said:
But is pandering to a judge's prejudices the best way to evaluate a photograph?
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Probably not. But it's like one of those things that can't be unseen. Really though it's up to the judge to be more professional.
 
Hi All, sorry if I shouldn't resurrect a topic where the discussion looks to have finished, but I found this site whilst looking for "camera clubs without competitions" and there seemed to be some great points here, so I've joined. Not trying to go off-topic either, but here's a bit of context ... I'm a relative newbie, was enjoying taking photos with my phone so eventually got myself a "proper" camera (one where I could change the lens). I love playing with composition but don't have the technical skills to back it up, so I joined a camera club. It's a lovely club - the people are very welcoming and unlike some people above have encountered, there's no snobbery or focus on what equipment you use. However ... I'd done a bit of research but hadn't realised how much it seems many camera clubs have competitions at their core. I wasn't looking for this, but was encouraged to join in for the best way to get objective feedback (plus I either miss the meetings or want to be involved), but I'm getting quite frustrated with the narrow scope of many judges - the last one's favourite remark was "not enough there to hold my interest" (in general, not just my images). I'm not looking to leave, the people are too lovely, plus they do run other things like those mentioned above, such as Zoom discussion groups and members' evenings. But the main focus is still the competitions, in the sense that it seems to define where people are aiming with their photography and the "rules" that these follow. There is the odd judge who allow that "it's fine to break the rules if you do it well", but like some of those above, I'm finding the general trend is to produce images that I think judges will be happy with, but then I won't ... So I'm looking for some more input and thought that this place seems like it might be a good environment. Apologies for the rambling, suppose I really wanted to say thanks, as the points discussed here have helped me already.
 
It's good that you found us and this thread helped @herdwicksheep , and you might take note that on TP you are welcome to submit/post images either just for sharing or to explicitly ask for feedback/critique (hint: advisable to say which, as critique can sometimes be a bit brutal even if constructive). The other thing is that we run a number of challenges - as against competitions - which have a theme to shoot to but the only competition is to see how many people vote for your image. But that doesn't matter except as an indicator of feedback.
 
You are always welcome here. It might be worth someone having a word with that judge though. He doesn't exactly sound objective.
 
Thanks guys, I'll have a look through the forums and get involved. I probably chose a bad example, most of the judges aren't quite that extreme (someone described the judging as "brutal"), but there's definitely a trend to fitting certain criteria. One example is not chopping things at the edges, whereas I love some of the images I see like this and feel they can pull you into the scene.
 
I enjoy our local Camera Club; agreed the average age is 55+, but that means we have an extended Tea and toilet break and the soft biscuits and cake are a bonus...
I've leaned much, listening to experiences, show and tell (always openly displaying 'personal' techniques). There is the odd smattering of internal competitions, but it's usually lighthearted and certainly nothing over-competitive.
 
herdwicksheep said:
Hi All, sorry if I shouldn't resurrect a topic where the discussion looks to have finished, but I found this site whilst looking for "camera clubs without competitions" and there seemed to be some great points here, so I've joined. Not trying to go off-topic either, but here's a bit of context ... I'm a relative newbie, was enjoying taking photos with my phone so eventually got myself a "proper" camera (one where I could change the lens). I love playing with composition but don't have the technical skills to back it up, so I joined a camera club. It's a lovely club - the people are very welcoming and unlike some people above have encountered, there's no snobbery or focus on what equipment you use. However ... I'd done a bit of research but hadn't realised how much it seems many camera clubs have competitions at their core. I wasn't looking for this, but was encouraged to join in for the best way to get objective feedback (plus I either miss the meetings or want to be involved), but I'm getting quite frustrated with the narrow scope of many judges - the last one's favourite remark was "not enough there to hold my interest" (in general, not just my images). I'm not looking to leave, the people are too lovely, plus they do run other things like those mentioned above, such as Zoom discussion groups and members' evenings. But the main focus is still the competitions, in the sense that it seems to define where people are aiming with their photography and the "rules" that these follow. There is the odd judge who allow that "it's fine to break the rules if you do it well", but like some of those above, I'm finding the general trend is to produce images that I think judges will be happy with, but then I won't ... So I'm looking for some more input and thought that this place seems like it might be a good environment. Apologies for the rambling, suppose I really wanted to say thanks, as the points discussed here have helped me already.
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Different clubs approach the competition side differently, For some its the be all and end all, for others it's more of a form of whimsical entertainment, but its a good method of encouraging you to get out and take photographs, especially if there is a theme.

As I said in my previous comments, I noticed a certain aesthetic emerging in the club scene when I was in a club. And that lead to an echo chamber like situation where success breeds imitation and thus the situation perpetuates. I certainly got some useful feedback on my photographs when I was in a club but my direction of travel as a photographer was more in the direction of documentary and I drifted away from the club although I do still lecture to clubs. Interestingly, there are a few club photographers in the monochrome group I'm in, and they often show work that they prefix with 'I wouldn't enter this into a competition at my club......'

The judging side is a thankless task and no-one will be truly happy except the person with the most points! I found the most useful feedback came from judges who had seen the entries beforehand and had time to observe and reflect on the pictures rather than seeing them for the first time on the night. I don't know if either situation is more prevalent now, it certainly required more planning to get the work to the judges and time on their part to go through the work.
 
When I was a young advertisement salesman on a local London newspaper, I had the temerity to ask the senior photographer if he ever went to the local camera club.
"Oh yes", was his reply, "it's very useful. Whenever I win a competition, I know my style's getting too boring!" :tumbleweed:
 
I think local camera clubs make sense as a way to find company to not be alone in the journey, to learn new things, find like-minded people on the grounds of at least one shared hobby, etc. I used to be a member of a local photography chat when I first started and I've learned some interesting tricks and received valuable critique (mind you, I was a newbie with a camera in hand and knowledge ending at "how to make a photo black and white in photoworks"), so it definitely was useful. However, I don't have that competition spirit in me and the club itself felt elitist a bit, ie more experienced members or well paid full-time photographers would often come to mock the newbies without actually giving advice. Now this is definitely a problem, no one deserves to be laughed at for simply being a beginner. We all were there once.
 
Annet said:
the club itself felt elitist a bit, ie more experienced members or well paid full-time photographers would often come to mock the newbies without actually giving advice.
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Fortunately, not all clubs are like this. We have had excellent talks by:
- armed forces photographer
- stills tog working with the Planet Earth team
- police crime scene photographer
- sports photographer with national newspaper
etc

If you’re in two minds why not pop in to a local club and see if it suits you

if you don’t like it, try another or put it down to experience and walk away
 
Annet said:
I think local camera clubs make sense as a way to find company to not be alone in the journey, to learn new things, find like-minded people on the grounds of at least one shared hobby, etc. I used to be a member of a local photography chat when I first started and I've learned some interesting tricks and received valuable critique (mind you, I was a newbie with a camera in hand and knowledge ending at "how to make a photo black and white in photoworks"), so it definitely was useful. However, I don't have that competition spirit in me and the club itself felt elitist a bit, ie more experienced members or well paid full-time photographers would often come to mock the newbies without actually giving advice. Now this is definitely a problem, no one deserves to be laughed at for simply being a beginner. We all were there once.
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That's a shame, there's no need for that sort of attitude. Thankfully I haven't come across anything like that, the camera club members are really welcoming and encouraging.
 
I always remember that they opened up a local mill that had been restored, and naturally it attracted a small crowd of visitors, including two stereo-typical camera club members. We all know the type. Blimpish, with red cheeks and bloody great Nikon DSLR's hung around their necks. I don't think I saw them take a single photo, and they soon disappeared, probably when they realised their cameras were not suitable for shooting in such a confined space. But then, they were the Gilbert and George of the camera world, and there for show. I'm afraid that's the sort of image that has stuck with me.
 
@herdwicksheep

Combining two thread replies......hi from Surrey too :)

Re: clubs ~ many moons ago I was a member of Woking Camera Club.....the ethos was quite competition driven but they had different categories including those for novices, where helpful & constructive criticism was the mantra. The club had some luminary members who had their experience deep in specialist darkroom techniques. (NB Tim Rudman is one name I recall)

I never tried Guildford club because at that time there was 'something about them '.

But as you say it is the people that make the club but sadly the committee can be questionable and you mention judging ~ are all the comps judged by an internal judge or an invited external one ~ that at times can make all the difference IMO

PS the club I now belong too is a genre based one and yes they have comps but only 2 per year. One is later this month, "it's a knock out" which is judged by all members voting for what they like. Oh, the photographic genre of the club 'Natural World' which means mostly fauna than flora
 
Box Brownie said:
@herdwicksheep

Combining two thread replies......hi from Surrey too :)

Re: clubs ~ many moons ago I was a member of Woking Camera Club.....the ethos was quite competition driven but they had different categories including those for novices, where helpful & constructive criticism was the mantra. The club had some luminary members who had their experience deep in specialist darkroom techniques. (NB Tim Rudman is one name I recall)

I never tried Guildford club because at that time there was 'something about them '.

But as you say it is the people that make the club but sadly the committee can be questionable and you mention judging ~ are all the comps judged by an internal judge or an invited external one ~ that at times can make all the difference IMO

PS the club I now belong too is a genre based one and yes they have comps but only 2 per year. One is later this month, "it's a knock out" which is judged by all members voting for what they like. Oh, the photographic genre of the club 'Natural World' which means mostly fauna than flora
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This is Haslemere and it's a lovely club, they are really friendly, but the programme is heavily competition-focussed. Most are externally-judged, which makes sense for objectivity. And there have been some judges who I've really enjoyed - my favourite started with "Ooh, I love looking at images!" (even though he disqualified 2 of mine as outside the category, he still gave me feedback, so it was fine). But there seem to be quite a few who focus on the negative, work from a "tick-box" list of things they can use to mark things down and don't seem to enjoy looking at the images that much, possibly forgetting that as hobbyists we want to enjoy it. So I get stuck between whether to produce images I like but am sure a judge won't or vice-versa. One of the club activities I enjoy the most though are the additional group chats held on Zoom, where everyone can put images in for discussion. It's not that there are no negative comments, but there's a two-way exchange of what the photographer was trying to do and how it comes across to those viewing. Often I find the suggestions for improving an image much more useful and sometimes others come up with their own "director's cut", which can be interesting.
 
yzfmike said:
Fortunately, not all clubs are like this. We have had excellent talks by:
- armed forces photographer
- stills tog working with the Planet Earth team
- police crime scene photographer
- sports photographer with national newspaper
etc

If you’re in two minds why not pop in to a local club and see if it suits you

if you don’t like it, try another or put it down to experience and walk away
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Yeah, I know it shouldn't be a problem and it's absolutely not a club's fault or clubs as a concept, it's always people! There isn't much choice where I live unfortunately, but with all the online resources like forums and communities it's okay
 
I was asked to become a member of a new club being set up using public money set aside for regenerating the former colliery villages of South Yorkshire. The man who had applied for and received the funding showed me around their dark room facility. In one small room there were 6 or 7 enlargers with no seperation and next door one small sink with an A4 sized workspace :rolleyes:

Needless to say that I didn't go back.
 
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A bit old topic but interesting for myself. I have been taking part in competitions recently and massively enjoyed it. You need to have a healthy attitude while competing. If you are doing it for winning you will always be a loser (even if you win). Photography and any other art discipline and frankly speaking anything you do is for your own development, this is your award. If you have different motifs you are on the wrong path. Clubs competitions are great because you receive feedback.
 
I love being a member of my club. Competition for me is a good way of making me try harder. While the results don't really matter it makes me challenge myself and think more about my images. It is a small part of the club though. Lots of nice people, good mix of men and women and a syllabus with lots of interesting talks. For 70 quid a year it gives me far more entertainment than my 450 quid season ticket.
 
John V said:
Hi
What is it with camera clubs and competitions? Am I alone in thinking that photography is an art which as an amateur is done for enjoyment?
If I join a jogging group I run with others for mutual support and fun - not to race everyone.
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As a Club Judge for the L&CPU, and previously YPU, I can happily report most clubs devote far more time to anything but comps. And some clubs have none at all

That said, although there are clearly people in it to win it, the best way to view comps is that you're competing against yourself. The aim being to, year on year, do better than you did before

A good Judge is there to offer support, tips, share a skillset to help you improve with the aim that your photography will improve by having a second (hopefully skilled) opinion

In a former club I helped start and which grew to over 50 members within 12 months, and had NO comps, we used to offer Critique nights where any member could share a couple of images for others to comment on in a positive way

Photography is an art form, but just as some types of painting, sculpture etc. can be sh*t due to a lack of skill & knowledge for that genre, poor photography skills can often be spotted and more easily 'corrected' with another's help. Comps help many improve, even if you never enter you can still learn from the critique at Judging nights

My Top Tip - if you can't find a club you like start your own and run it in the way you'd like, but just remember... PRACTISE PRACTISE PRACTISE alone rarely works
 
viewfromthenorth said:
That’s an excellent point and one I’d forgotten about. I once observed to the chairman of the club I was in that some members didn’t participate in anything and had no real discernible interest in photography. He said that’s right but for older people who are on their own, it’s something to do in the evening. It’ll be bridge club on Monday, local history group on Tuesday, camera club on Wednesday etc. A warm room with people to talk to is an attractive proposition if you’re lonely and don’t have much money.
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I am a member of a large club and competitions are popular but we also have critique sessions without competition. We have a good portion of female members and usually have one or two ethnic minorities. Our membership is holding steady well above 100 and most of the new members this year were younger than average. We arrange many events, outings and social occasions. Locally, there have been several on-line (only) clubs locally but each has failed after a fairly short time. I suspect that this is because many prefer the social contact and there are already well established on-line "clubs". I do not understand the suggestions that clubs have a very narrow ranged of genres. We cover Landscapes, Portraits, Street, Sport, Nature, Architecture, Macro, Product, Documentary, Creative, Studio Photography, Urbex, Astronomical and a few others. As well as linking up with other clubs in the area, we also link up with a club in Germany, USA and Australia and have regular cooperation with the local University.

Dave
 
Dave Canon said:
I am a member of a large club and competitions are popular but we also have critique sessions without competition. We have a good portion of female members and usually have one or two ethnic minorities. Our membership is holding steady well above 100 and most of the new members this year were younger than average. We arrange many events, outings and social occasions. Locally, there have been several on-line (only) clubs locally but each has failed after a fairly short time. I suspect that this is because many prefer the social contact and there are already well established on-line "clubs". I do not understand the suggestions that clubs have a very narrow ranged of genres. We cover Landscapes, Portraits, Street, Sport, Nature, Architecture, Macro, Product, Documentary, Creative, Studio Photography, Urbex, Astronomical and a few others. As well as linking up with other clubs in the area, we also link up with a club in Germany, USA and Australia and have regular cooperation with the local University.

Dave
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Your does sound like one of the exceptions. I’ve not been in a club for about 15 years but I have done approaching a hundred talks to clubs both in zoom and in person since 2014. I’m struggling to think of one with that many members other than maybe Harrogate and that was before the pandemic. Since then, virtually every club I’ve spoken at has reported a drop in membership.

When I do check their websites, I’ve not seen anything like the variety of work you list, so kudos to your members for stepping outside the camera club norms.
 
viewfromthenorth said:
Your does sound like one of the exceptions. I’ve not been in a club for about 15 years but I have done approaching a hundred talks to clubs both in zoom and in person since 2014. I’m struggling to think of one with that many members other than maybe Harrogate and that was before the pandemic. Since then, virtually every club I’ve spoken at has reported a drop in membership.

When I do check their websites, I’ve not seen anything like the variety of work you list, so kudos to your members for stepping outside the camera club norms.
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The problem is that attendance has not fully recovered since COVID. Only a couple of weeks ago did we have over half of our members attending an evening. We have had a drop in that we peaked in 2012 but have now stopped going down but now have a rising in membership. I do not believe our member think that they are "stepping outside Camera Club norms" (whatever this is). Of the genres I listed I have covered at least 9 of them this year myself and probably would have done more but for age and health problems. I try everything and always have though we do have some members who specialise which is also fine as they tend to set high standards in their genre.

Dave
 
Dave Canon said:
The problem is that attendance has not fully recovered since COVID. Only a couple of weeks ago did we have over half of our members attending an evening. We have had a drop in that we peaked in 2012 but have now stopped going down but now have a rising in membership. I do not believe our member think that they are "stepping outside Camera Club norms" (whatever this is). Of the genres I listed I have covered at least 9 of them this year myself and probably would have done more but for age and health problems. I try everything and always have though we do have some members who specialise which is also fine as they tend to set high standards in their genre.

Dave
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Good stuff, I’ve seen precious little / no product, documentary, urbex and astronomical photography on the club sites I’ve looked at over the past few years. Plenty of birds on sticks, models in studios, zoom blur cyclists, speedway motorbikes, amateur rugby and composites though. Not a criticism by any means, it’s an observation as to what is popular.
 
viewfromthenorth said:
Good stuff, I’ve seen precious little / no product, documentary, urbex and astronomical photography on the club sites I’ve looked at over the past few years. Plenty of birds on sticks, models in studios, zoom blur cyclists, speedway motorbikes, amateur rugby and composites though. Not a criticism by any means, it’s an observation as to what is popular.
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I agree with that too - I think its a 'fashion' thing. Someone sees and tries something 'new' to them, others try to copy & better it - it doesn't just happen in clubs though

Maybe Dave C's club, being much larger than most, just attracts a wider genre audience :)
 
I haven't been a club member for many years now. I also wonder if falling attendance might be down to the demographic of members; namely is the age profile of members towards the more mature. This may possibly be due to the way we interact more online especially for those generations brought up with the internet.
In the past if you wanted to learn about a genre or style of photography you had to physically go to a lecture / workshop. Now I can watch training videos at a time to suit me.
If I want critique I can post to forums like TP or FB groups etc.
I just wonder if people are moving away from the in person interaction in favour of online
 
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