Canon Bob
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Did your mum know Murray Walker?
Canon FF mirrorless...
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Did your mum know Murray Walker?
RedRobin
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.... Indeed. Are you having trouble with your English as you often do, Jonney?
With their launch of a new lens mount and FF mirrorless EOS system, Canon have stolen a lead on Nikon regarding the simultaneously released four RF lenses and it's a safe bet that more lenses, or even 'glass', will soon follow and certainly well in time for the Olympics.
RedRobin
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It's still less than a week since my EOS R + RF 24-105mm arrived and was unboxed (without a boring 15-minute YouTool vid!) and the weather is still grim with poor light and lots of rain or drizzle. So I only have 97 images currently residing on my card but in shooting many of them I have experienced a quite unexpected wow about how well the AF performs and indeed also how the sensor performs in dark shadows. But in slightly brighter daylight (there was a brief spell yesterday) with the RF 24-105mm mounted it did not seem any faster to AF than the 1DX-2 + 100-400mm L II which I also had with me and tested on the same static subject. This makes me unsure about Canon's claim for the R to be currently the fastest camera ever to AF but my brief 'tests' were merely perceptive and nothing scientific.
I have disabled the Multi-Function Bar until my Control Ring Adapter arrives and then I can better customise both R and 1DX-2 bodies to match as closely as possible as they will both often be with me in the field (and both mostly with EF lenses mounted). The RF lens does offer some extras which I like. I'm not sure about the Multi-Function Bar anyway as I find it feels a bit too imprecise and too easily touched when feeling around for the AF-ON button to focus while in the viewfinder.
I would have preferred if the AF-ON button was positioned at a bit less of an angle but I can operate it more with the side of my thumb. The 1DX-2 AF-ON button is much easier to use. When shooting with the screen flipped out for Live View, the AF-ON position is no problem at all, in fact I personally find it slightly better in that particular circumstance.
Something else I don't like, at least not yet, is the touch screen method of moving AF points around while looking through the viewfinder - I have unintentionally moved it without realising when grabbing a quick shot of a friend playing with her dog. Fortunately my RF zoom lens was at a wide enough angle to give sufficient DoF for sharpness. This has happened to me more than once and it took me time to discover that by default the trash can icon which Canon call the Erase Button re-centres the AF point - I was naturally very apprehensive (mistakenly) that I might accidentally erase a recorded image if I pressed that button. Consequently I have programmed another button to re-centre the AF point. I am likely to use the Cross Keys wheel instead to move the AF point but I rarely move it around anyway.
Although like most users, I would have preferred the Cross Keys to be a Control Wheel to match most Canon D-SLR bodies, it is really a large joystick. But how much joy a user gets from it is a matter for the individual.
It will take time before the R body feels more fluid to use through familiarity and the customising options are very extensive and very very welcome. You can even program the nice big Movie Shooting Button and as I never shoot video and have no intention of ever doing so, this is a winner. Canon have got the stills shooter well covered!
I am really enjoying the EOS R and am always conscious that no camera is perfect (not even the 1DX-2) - It's just a matter of knowing any machine's limitations and working within them to achieve good results. Human limitations are no different!
Talking of results, I am waiting for my RAW editor CaptureOne to support CR3 before I convert the files and I have learnt that they are currently working on it. However, some of the images I have captured so far are looking very promising indeed on the LCD screen.
I have disabled the Multi-Function Bar until my Control Ring Adapter arrives and then I can better customise both R and 1DX-2 bodies to match as closely as possible as they will both often be with me in the field (and both mostly with EF lenses mounted). The RF lens does offer some extras which I like. I'm not sure about the Multi-Function Bar anyway as I find it feels a bit too imprecise and too easily touched when feeling around for the AF-ON button to focus while in the viewfinder.
I would have preferred if the AF-ON button was positioned at a bit less of an angle but I can operate it more with the side of my thumb. The 1DX-2 AF-ON button is much easier to use. When shooting with the screen flipped out for Live View, the AF-ON position is no problem at all, in fact I personally find it slightly better in that particular circumstance.
Something else I don't like, at least not yet, is the touch screen method of moving AF points around while looking through the viewfinder - I have unintentionally moved it without realising when grabbing a quick shot of a friend playing with her dog. Fortunately my RF zoom lens was at a wide enough angle to give sufficient DoF for sharpness. This has happened to me more than once and it took me time to discover that by default the trash can icon which Canon call the Erase Button re-centres the AF point - I was naturally very apprehensive (mistakenly) that I might accidentally erase a recorded image if I pressed that button. Consequently I have programmed another button to re-centre the AF point. I am likely to use the Cross Keys wheel instead to move the AF point but I rarely move it around anyway.
Although like most users, I would have preferred the Cross Keys to be a Control Wheel to match most Canon D-SLR bodies, it is really a large joystick. But how much joy a user gets from it is a matter for the individual.
It will take time before the R body feels more fluid to use through familiarity and the customising options are very extensive and very very welcome. You can even program the nice big Movie Shooting Button and as I never shoot video and have no intention of ever doing so, this is a winner. Canon have got the stills shooter well covered!
I am really enjoying the EOS R and am always conscious that no camera is perfect (not even the 1DX-2) - It's just a matter of knowing any machine's limitations and working within them to achieve good results. Human limitations are no different!
Talking of results, I am waiting for my RAW editor CaptureOne to support CR3 before I convert the files and I have learnt that they are currently working on it. However, some of the images I have captured so far are looking very promising indeed on the LCD screen.
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Tbh I had like 5h sleep and posted before I had my caffeine fix........ Indeed. Are you having trouble with your English as you often do, Jonney?
With their launch of a new lens mount and FF mirrorless EOS system, Canon have stolen a lead on Nikon regarding the simultaneously released four RF lenses and it's a safe bet that more lenses, or even 'glass', will soon follow and certainly well in time for the Olympics.
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There's a bit on Steve Huffs site with the R fitted with a Nikon 58mm f1.2...
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2018/10/16/a-taste-of-the-canon-eos-r-with-noct-nikkor-58-f-1-2-lens/
These may indeed be freaking awesome but I find myself underwhelmed and frankly I think I've taken better pictures with my Minolta 50mm f1.2. No criticism of the R here, just sayin. Still, it does show one advantage of mirrorless, you can mount just about anything and have fun.
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2018/10/16/a-taste-of-the-canon-eos-r-with-noct-nikkor-58-f-1-2-lens/
These may indeed be freaking awesome but I find myself underwhelmed
and frankly I think I've taken better pictures with my Minolta 50mm f1.2. No criticism of the R here, just sayin. Still, it does show one advantage of mirrorless, you can mount just about anything and have fun.
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I don’t see a mirrorless 1DX as anything to anger the DSLR crowd. The 1DX2 is a great camera and will still be a great camera when/if/should a mirrorless equivalent surface. It will have to be better than the 1DX2 by a noticeable margin to get me interested. Taking the mirror box out and slapping an EVF on the top won’t be enough, neither will any fancy video b*****ks. It will need to have a significant performance advantage.
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We'll have to agree to disagree.
The extremely poor fps with continuous af and exposure is joke imho. Even offering that with 6 or so fps to match the 6DII would have been OK. But to say it is this fps without continuous af and fixed exposure, this number with continuous af but fixed exposure and another number with afc and exposure to me makes it look like they are struggling to get performance. Maybe just be Canon putting the EOS R at a lower performance level than the lowest FF DSLR, but for me I doubt it. As with a lot of these things, time will tell.For me it is theoretically easier and potentially quicker for Sony to beef up a body than for Canon (and Nikon) to match the tech lead Sony have. Add to that Sony also have a lead for native lenses too for their mirrorless and if the future of 'Pro' sports is mirrorless, which it may be long term, it is up to Canon and Nikon to not lose that market in the short term by not evolving their DSLR's to offset the transition to mirrorless until such point that they do (if they ever do
) have something that completely replaces their high end DSLR's, but hopefully takes performance beyond their DSLR's. The competition are not standing still though. The a9 is a stunning first 'Pro' level camera from a technical and performance pov.I don't see a problem for a company cannibalising sales of their own cameras.
A sale is a sale, it is not as if they are selling these mirrorless cameras cheap compared to DSLR's with similar performance, and they may also be selling (not cheap) new native lenses at the same time, and maybe the odd adapter too. Add to that that part of the reason for the move to mirrorless from a manufacturers point of view is because it is cheaper because of they are smaller, have less moving parts, and no expensive prism. Better lose a DSLR sale but get a mirrorless sale than to lose a sale to a competitor if mirrorless is what they want.Someone buys a mirrorless camera and it seems win all the way for the manufacturer for me, unless someone can explain why it would be better to sell a DSLR camera instead.
RedRobin
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There's a bit on Steve Huffs site with the R fitted with a Nikon 58mm f1.2...
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2018/10/16/a-taste-of-the-canon-eos-r-with-noct-nikkor-58-f-1-2-lens/
These may indeed be freaking awesome but I find myself underwhelmed
.... Yes, those pics posted by Steve Huffs are truly awful - Badly under exposed. I fail to understand why anyone would actually buy, as he has done, an EOS R to then put a Nikkor lens on it. Why didn't he buy the Nikon Z?
We'll have to agree to disagree.
For me it is theoretically easier and potentially quicker for Sony to beef up a body than for Canon (and Nikon) to match the tech lead Sony have. Add to that Sony also have a lead for native lenses too for their mirrorless and if the future of 'Pro' sports is mirrorless, which it may be long term, it is up to Canon and Nikon to not lose that market in the short term by not evolving their DSLR's to offset the transition to mirrorless until such point that they do (if they ever do
I don't see a problem for a company cannibalising sales of their own cameras.
Someone buys a mirrorless camera and it seems win all the way for the manufacturer for me, unless someone can explain why it would be better to sell a DSLR camera instead.
To clear the existing stock sitting on the shelves... Cameras and lenses. They cost the manufacturer to make so they'll want to see a return, long term mirrorless is a better proposition.
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Canon must have something in mind. They’ve just brought out MkIII versions of the 400 f2.8 and 600 f4. Why? It wasn’t as if the MkIIs were dogs. They must confident that any future mirrorless will not have any performance deficiency using these lenses via adaptors to put the investment into them. Will they bring out R mount superteles or will they concentrate on expanding the range in other focal lengths.
RedRobin
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.... I don't see anything to "anger" the D-SLR crowd either and I agree that the 1DX-2 will be a great camera for a very long time to come. BUT....
As you already know, I have both the EOS R first version and the 1DX-2 and there are some features which a 1DX mirrorless version would definitely tempt me as long as the fps wasn't compromised. In other words, there are already features in the EOS R which I would badly want to see (and one or two vica-versa). What on earth are they, you might be thinking?
- Histogram in the viewfinder
- Focal Distance in the viewfinder
- A fully articulated LCD touch screen
- As fully customisable as the EOS R
- A much easier to use ON/OFF switch
- 30Mp sensor, not that the current 20Mp isn't excellent
The worst thing for me about the EOS R is the painfully slow frame rate - I missed a Goldfinch's open wings this morning and my 1DX-2 would almost certainly have captured it but I am exploring the limitations and advantages of the R. The adjustable LCD touch screen is a major advantage.
Dare I say yet again > It's Horses-for-Courses.
RedRobin
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.... Very good question.
Canon's Rudy 'Kermit' Winston has said that the MkIII 400mm and 600mm F/4L lenses (300mm and 500mm MkIII are apparently also coming) have nano stuff inside them which communicate two-way when mounted on the EOS R body to then deliver increased performance. I think that the new lighter weight 600mm III has probably killed the rumour of a 600mm DO which Canon even publicly showed a model of in late 2016.
For what it's worth I have yet to see any performance drop with my EF 500mm F/4L IS + 2x III + Adapter on my EOS R body compared with my 1DX-2 and apart from the embarrassing and very limiting 3fps, this combo is very enjoyable to use on a gimbal head but the balance would be off when handheld in spite of the excellent deep grip on the R. Actually I have handheld it for a grab shot but quickly got it supported on the window sill.
One currently Canadian-resident friend of mine is about to buy the 600mm III for her 1DX-2 and another friend who is a professional is seriously considering buying one. Like yourself, Gary, they're not planning to buy a mirrorless FF EOS body until the specs are either equal to or superior to the 1DX-2.
I think that some of the EF Canon L lenses will continue to be developed and others won't. For the time being I think that Canon are being wise in keeping the EF range going - There are plenty of photographers wanting to continue expanding their EOS D-SLR system or buying into it for the first time.
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The range of Native Sony lenses is growing steadily - and significantly exceeds the native lenses for either Canon or Nikon mirrorless.
What does surprise me, to some extent, is why Sony don't simply produce a variant of the A7iii or A9 in a bigger body, and simply use the extra internal space to provide a significant level of weather sealing - because that is purely a mechanical engineering problem, so in theory should be easier than the task of Canon or Nikon to develop the complex electronics to catch up with Sony technically.
We know Sony are happy to have several overlapping models, so why not an 'A7L' (for large
) ?The range of Native Sony lenses is growing steadily - and significantly exceeds the native lenses for either Canon or Nikon mirrorless.
What does surprise me, to some extent, is why Sony don't simply produce a variant of the A7iii or A9 in a bigger body, and simply use the extra internal space to provide a significant level of weather sealing - because that is purely a mechanical engineering problem, so in theory should be easier than the task of Canon or Nikon to develop the complex electronics to catch up with Sony technically.
We know Sony are happy to have several overlapping models, so why not an 'A7L' (for large
A7+ or A7xl.
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The range of Native Sony lenses is growing steadily - and significantly exceeds the native lenses for either Canon or Nikon mirrorless.
What does surprise me, to some extent, is why Sony don't simply produce a variant of the A7iii or A9 in a bigger body, and simply use the extra internal space to provide a significant level of weather sealing - because that is purely a mechanical engineering problem, so in theory should be easier than the task of Canon or Nikon to develop the complex electronics to catch up with Sony technically.
We know Sony are happy to have several overlapping models, so why not an 'A7L' (for large
Yeah go down the route of Nintendo. Same model in various sizes - A7RIII XL
Then they can release the "new" A7R III XL when people complain it's still not large enough
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The range of Native Sony lenses is growing steadily - and significantly exceeds the native lenses for either Canon or Nikon mirrorless.
What does surprise me, to some extent, is why Sony don't simply produce a variant of the A7iii or A9 in a bigger body, and simply use the extra internal space to provide a significant level of weather sealing - because that is purely a mechanical engineering problem, so in theory should be easier than the task of Canon or Nikon to develop the complex electronics to catch up with Sony technically.
We know Sony are happy to have several overlapping models, so why not an 'A7L' (for large
That's far too sensible a thought for any major manufacturer follow through with.
You can of course fit a grip, bracket, cage or whatever to existing cameras but that wont solve all complaints and grumbles but the same gubbins in a bigger body with repositioned controls might and could attract buyers not happy with the current bodies.
RedRobin
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Bryan Carnathan of The-Digital-Picture always does excellent and very thorough reviews in my opinion, so here it is :
https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-R.aspx
I'm about to make a cuppa and start reading it
https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-R.aspx
I'm about to make a cuppa and start reading it
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I don't think it's because they have something in mind, I think it's a simple reflection of the current market reality. Let's pretend Canon brought out the perfect camera tomorrow, not everyone would switch, they're still going to make plenty of money till people do and even those that switch can still happily buy those lenses and convert them.
As we know they're not making the perfect camera tomorrow the decision makes even more sense imo.
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Bryan Carnathan of The-Digital-Picture always does excellent and full reviews in my opinion, so here it is :
https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-R.aspx
I'm about to make a cuppa and start reading it
I've just skimmed that so I may be being unfair and the alternative products from Sony and Nikon may be mentioned somewhere but the "Alternatives to the R" section seems to mentions only Canon products, ditto the "Summary."
These cameras don't exist in a vacuum and whilst I wouldn't expect an R review to mention the Sony A7III / Nikon CSC in every sentence surely a passing reference to the existence of the competition should be in there somewhere, at least in the "alternatives" section. This isn't the worst brand tunnel vision I've seen, there is a forum I visit that seems to be populated by Nikon users who believe that nothing exists until Nikon do it and if and when Nikon do it they all genuflect.
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I appreciate its possible im a complete numpty, but i keep seeing this and it makes no sense whatsoever to me.
So please can someone explain why Canon (or Nikon) would be happier if I buy a £2000 DSLR than if I buy a £2000 mirrorless camera? As a businessman, if I’m selling 2 different products for £2000 my business model means I’m making similar or the same profit on both sales.
I don’t have inside knowledge so I’m going to assume that as the mirrorless cameras are newer they are desperate to recoup their development costs.
So please can someone tell me where this oft repeated ‘obvious truth’ comes from?
Anyone?
I’m going to assume that everyone knows how different Sony’s business model is because no one ever suggested that they’d rather sell a DSLR than a mirrorless camera, but again, that’s a mystery to me too, Sony seem happy to sell mirrorless cameras and no one ever suggested that was cannibalising their business. In fact; weirdly Sony actually sell sensors to help their competitors, and no one even suggests this cannibalises their business!!
I must be an idiot to not be seeing the obvious story here, but I just don’t understand it at all.
So can someone explain it to me in small words... please?
RedRobin
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.... I suggest you read the whole review rather than just "skim" through and you will see that the Sony A7III and Nikon are mentioned several times. Although only as directly relevant.
But be aware that Bryan's reviews on his The-Digital-Picture website are reviews of the product and not a buyer's guide to what is on offer in the market - They are invariably in depth and long enough without becoming a buyer's guide. Read other reviews if you want that. Or read them all and make your own decisions based on them.
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Thought the same thing so I read it, the Sony A7III and Nikon Z's are listed in the tables (sensor, File and Media and frame rate) beside that the only mention I can find of the Nikon is the AF assist light is better place on the Canon and with the Sony its how the Canon is as good as in 3-stop overexposed-corrected comparison and that the Sony refocuses in one shot AF mode so the Canon is dramatically faster.
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If that was supposed to answer my question you failed miserably.
Failed to tag me properly, failed to answer my point “why would they be happier if I buy a DSLR than a mirrorless?’ then failed again by having a meaningless rant about your personal view of the camera and where you think Canon are going wrong (based on nothing more than your wild imagination)
Will you try again?
RedRobin
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.... Golly! To force (your word not mine) all existing Canon users to a new mount etc etc as you said, would be extremely short sighted of Canon, or any other manufacturer, and heavily risk alienating a very valuable client base eventually risking business failure.
I don't want to be rude to you, but I can't help wondering what experience you might have of running a business?
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You want clients to go and buy the latest stuff u make and forcing canon users to buy native glass along with the new mirrorless cameras are great business!
Canon clients wont switch at all will stick with canon thust if they want to use the latest tech that can help make there work easier to do then they must pay the price
End of the day they did not do this so dont sweat. Your EF Glasses are fine as well as your pro DSLR camera's. KEEP shooting.
@RedRobin post more pics please as well!
Canon clients wont switch at all will stick with canon thust if they want to use the latest tech that can help make there work easier to do then they must pay the price
End of the day they did not do this so dont sweat. Your EF Glasses are fine as well as your pro DSLR camera's. KEEP shooting.
@RedRobin post more pics please as well!
Canon Bob
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Not if the new mount/system is Nikon F, Fuji X or Pentax K
RedRobin
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.... I shoot at every opportunity (because I love the challenge and the wildlife subjects). Currently the light is poor all day every day! But I have my Canon rig of EF 500mm + 2x + RF Adapter on EOS R on gimbal head on Skimmer on my open window's sill overlooking my garden. I haven't converted the RAW files yet (I don't shoot JPEG) because I don't use Lightroom and CR3 isn't supported by CaptureOne yet < I'm waiting because I want to compare my EOS R CR3 images with my similar D-SLR CR2 images through the same processing workflow. I'm curious how they compare but have both camera bodies to fulfil differing uses.
But anyway, what use would me posting my EOS R pics here be? All they would do is illustrate how good or bad I am at photography and post-processing. They wouldn't tell anyone anything meaningful about the EOS R itself.
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Not enough so IMO. If in the market for a camera like this I'd want to know how good it is against the competition and IMO this review doesn't help in that respect.
And again I'll say that I'm not a fan boy. If reading that review with the possibility of buying the kit in mind I can't see how it helps me as I'd have only a fleeting idea that the Sony and Nikon alternatives exist and no real idea how the three cameras compare and what the plus and minus points are for me. As I said, I don't expect the review to constantly reference the competition but if would be nice if it was possible to at least try and view the R in some sort of context against the competition which like it or not should include similar Sony and Nikon mirrorless cameras.
IMO it reads as if written by someone who only grudgingly concedes that other makes exist. To only mention other Canon cameras in the alternatives section seems rather off. IMO.
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Fraser Euan White
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I appreciate its possible im a complete numpty, but i keep seeing this and it makes no sense whatsoever to me.
So please can someone explain why Canon (or Nikon) would be happier if I buy a £2000 DSLR than if I buy a £2000 mirrorless camera? As a businessman, if I’m selling 2 different products for £2000 my business model means I’m making similar or the same profit on both sales.
I don’t have inside knowledge so I’m going to assume that as the mirrorless cameras are newer they are desperate to recoup their development costs.
So please can someone tell me where this oft repeated ‘obvious truth’ comes from?
Anyone?
I’m going to assume that everyone knows how different Sony’s business model is because no one ever suggested that they’d rather sell a DSLR than a mirrorless camera, but again, that’s a mystery to me too, Sony seem happy to sell mirrorless cameras and no one ever suggested that was cannibalising their business. In fact; weirdly Sony actually sell sensors to help their competitors, and no one even suggests this cannibalises their business!!
I must be an idiot to not be seeing the obvious story here, but I just don’t understand it at all.
So can someone explain it to me in small words... please?
Yes Phil - you are a complete numpty! (Sorry couldn't miss that opportunity)
The only time I can see it makes sense is that they would like you to buy two camera systems - a DSLR and a mirrorless as Robin has done; that way they make double profits!
Otherwise you are right - there is no logic to what people say about this.
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Totally agree with you on this, I was just curious how much a Sony/ Nikon was mentioned.
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Isn't that exactly what Canon did with the FD mount?
In the end it did them no harm but people have long memories ...
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I think it had to come (the new mount,) it was only a matter of time as DSLR's move to mirrorless to incorporate all the new stuff which would feel like a botch if they persisted with DSLR's. DSLR's have had a good run and moving to mirrorless probably wont be the last change.
RedRobin
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.... Alan, I'm sorry but as I aready said in the post you are replying to, Bryan Carnathan always presents his reviews in this way and not as a comparison site to help readers buy from a selection of brands < There are plenty of those to help you make purchasing decisions from amongst a variety of brands. His reviews always have been about the product specification itself and he does this very thoroughly. If his reviews are not to your liking it's not really a problem as you can ignore them and easily find plenty of other online reviews more to your liking.
Personally I find his reviews always very thorough and refreshing and always informative about the actual product. I bookmark them and find myself returning for particular information.
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His A7III review mainly talks about the A7rIII and A9 with a passing reference to the 6D...
RedRobin
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.... Well you obviously have a long memory but hopefully not a bitter one.
I moved from Nikon F to Canon EOS about 30 years ago and so know anything about the FD mount but wasn't it a change from roll film to digital and therefore perhaps a necessary change for the best?
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I have a mixture of admiration and confusion of your self control.
First there was not turning the camera on the moment the battery was charged after getting the camera, and now it is not finding a way to open the RAW files. I was able get the Nikon D500 soon after release, but before Adobe were able to update Adobe Camera Raw and Lightroom. Firstly I used the camera as soon as the battery charged,
then I looked for a way to open the RAW files. In my situation it was using Nikon's TAW software at that time, which I don't really like, but I was at least able to play around with the files a bit. Then Adobe released and update for their DNG Converter, which was then able to convert the D500 RAW files to DNG files before the update for ACR and Lr. I was able to then use the DNG files in ACR and Lr before those updates were available to see how the files compared to the Nikon D300S files I had been using for many years. I was very happy with the improvement in resolution and dynamic range of the files of newer camera compared to the old one.
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But that was done for a very good reason (for owners not Canon) forcing their users* to bite the bullet and accept that the future required a fully electronic mount.
And look how long it’s taken others to catch up
*though technically they didn’t force anything, they carried on selling fed mount cameras for quite some time IIRC.
The T90 was released in 1986 and the first EOS only a year later, I’m fairly sure the overlap went on for years
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But that was done for a very good reason (for owners not Canon) forcing their users* to bite the bullet and accept that the future required a fully electronic mount.
And look how long it’s taken others to catch up
*though technically they didn’t force anything, they carried on selling fed mount cameras for quite some time IIRC.
FD carried on until the early 90s. I had a T60 and a EOS 650 and I bought the T60 after the EOS.