Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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wuyanxu said:
Alright, if you say so, Mr Expert. No one can question your claims, I'm so sorry.
:rolleyes:

When Tesla becomes a battery manufacturer, vast majority of the world will be driving zero emissions vehicle. That's a win for Tesla's original mission.

So you did watch Top Gear: Tesla Model 3 wipe the floor with all other cars. They had to cheat by double drag distance to 1/2 mile race to give ICE cars a slight chance. How £50k Model 3 performance is offering similar performance to specific cars at their own tasks (C63s at £66k for drag race, Alfa Giulia for £59k for track). How the ICE cars only managing to start catching up at 120+ mph, not a speed useful outside of driving straight line on the track. Model 3 is “An AK47 Disguised As A Butter Knife”

Oh no, sorry, they must be wrong. Anyone think Tesla make good cars must be wrong........ but you just said you agree with them........ I'm confused...... :wacky:
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You don't have to be an expert to apply simple logic. It isn't my fault if simple logic is beyond your comprehension.
Tesla's original mission was to build affordable Ev's for the masses. They still haven't done that. Becoming a battery manufacturer which are looking to be the outdated ones anyway was never their publicised mission.
They only rated the Tesla on straight line speed. Life is not a straigjt line. None of the other cars seemed to have been started off the line with any means of launch control, yet they would all have that as standard.
With It''s supposedly superior low centre of gravity that you keep marvelling about, the Tesla's handling wasn't so great and it was 4wd. By rights it should have been a lot higher up the timed lap board if the car was indeed that good.
 
ancient_mariner said:
*Open racing exhausts sound wonderful, though not so much at 2am.
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Something I don’t understand about exhausts is this: various TV programmes that talk about engine tuning say that you need to get the burnt mixture out of the engine as fast as possible yet most exhaust systems run the length of the vehicle. Surely the shorter the system the faster the waste gasses will be removed and the better the engine will perform? :thinking:
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Something I don’t understand about exhausts is this: various TV programmes that talk about engine tuning say that you need to get the burnt mixture out of the engine as fast as possible yet most exhaust systems run the length of the vehicle. Surely the shorter the system the faster the waste gasses will be removed and the better the engine will perform? :thinking:
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Not all engines need to get the exhaust gases away as quick as possible, some require a certain amount of back pressure. The amount of noise at full load can be controlled easier with a full length exhaust. If the internal bore of the exhaust is right, the back pressure shouldn't be too high regardless of the length of the exhaust.

A short exhaust can be quite spectacular though. ;)
View: https://youtu.be/bsdWgmp4TaQ
 
nilagin said:
Not all engines need to get the exhaust gases away as quick as possible, some require a certain amount of back pressure. The amount of noise at full load can be controlled easier with a full length exhaust. If the internal bore of the exhaust is right, the back pressure shouldn't be too high regardless of the length of the exhaust.

A short exhaust can be quite spectacular though. ;)
View: https://youtu.be/bsdWgmp4TaQ
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On one of my environmentally friendy eco TVRs, I had a custom exhaust made, with equal length pipes to the collector, then large bore to boxes, etc. It was a work of art (made by the same guy who made Prodrive's exhaust for Mr McRae's Scoobies) and went inside and outside the chassis rails, was a pain to fit, but released about 20bhp more so a worthwhile performance upgrade (but the car only did 7 mpg when in competition use!!! so probably not one for this thread.......)
 
Looking at the noise, as far as i can see it is just at low speed and as loud as an electric toothbrush. Hardly seems an issue.
 
PS, the biggest issue i have with Tesla cars is Elon Musk - but if someone offered one to me tomorrow I wouldn't say no!
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Something I don’t understand about exhausts is this: various TV programmes that talk about engine tuning say that you need to get the burnt mixture out of the engine as fast as possible yet most exhaust systems run the length of the vehicle. Surely the shorter the system the faster the waste gasses will be removed and the better the engine will perform? :thinking:
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Engines and exhaust systems need to be matched. I once had a Yahama XS500 with a shorty noisy exhaust, and although it made plenty of low-down torque, it really ran out of breath at higher revs. Fitted a standard exhaust and suddenly it had less low down power but much more top-end (would happily exceed 100mph 2-up with luggage, which wasn't bad for an old bike with 50bhp). With 2 stroke engines, a tuned exhaust is essential for making a decent amount of power.
 
Top Gear, also stated an 11 plate Leaf had a range of 35 miles and that wasn't even winter time and I believe I quote, "utterly useless".
To be fair we are talking about an 8 year old car and much like ice diesels they (Leaf) have got better in the intervening years.
No idea what the original range was but clearly 35 miles makes the car and its batteries virtually worthless.
As impressed as I was by the twin motor Tesla 3 in a straight line there is more to making a on engaging car than just making it go quick straightly, I expect the thrust out of the corners was fun though.
A side note, in your calculations did you include & years road tax at £320 pa after the first year due to even the base model 3 being over the threshold?
And of course if even the base model 3 is super fast on acceleration has anyone had one long enough to know how quickly it eats it's tyres?
 
ancient_mariner said:
Engines and exhaust systems need to be matched. I once had a Yahama XS500 with a shorty noisy exhaust, and although it made plenty of low-down torque, it really ran out of breath at higher revs. Fitted a standard exhaust and suddenly it had less low down power but much more top-end (would happily exceed 100mph 2-up with luggage, which wasn't bad for an old bike with 50bhp). With 2 stroke engines, a tuned exhaust is essential for making a decent amount of power.
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Not forgetting that to provide power and economy the back pressure in an exhaust system stops the incoming fuel-air mix flying straight out of the exhaust port during the induction (suck) phase of the cycle. Complex things decent exhaust systems, not so much in an EV of course.
 
MatBin said:
No idea what the original range was but clearly 35 miles makes the car and its batteries virtually worthless.
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Not been following this particular bit of the conversation but right there is a good argument for interchangeable batteries. Presumably the rest of the car was functional so be a shame to scrap it
 
nilagin said:
Actually I was putting it into context. ;)
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Let's remember who is the one creating confusion:
nilagin said:
Insider knowledge isn't required to know a software update a matter of days after a major fault is nothing but a sticking plaster. It needs extensive testing to prove it will work and as I said before it also needs to be proved it will fix other batteries already in the process of failing in the same way.
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You have repeatedly refused to give source on the bold statement. Repeatedly saying it's "simple logic", when you have zero evidence that there are any other battery that is in the process of failing.
nilagin said:
Just accept it as fact, it is the basic measures Tesla should be carrying out and to do so, they need to recall the cars.
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nilagin said:
You don't have to be an expert to apply simple logic.
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You are behaving like a flat earther when asked for evidence. "It's simple logic innit"

Here's the actual press release:
https://electrek.co/2019/05/15/tesla-fiire-update-battery-software/
As we continue our investigation of the root cause, out of an abundance of caution, we are revising charge and thermal management settings on Model S and Model X vehicles via an over-the-air software update that will begin rolling out today, to help further protect the battery and improve battery longevity.”
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nilagin said:
Tesla's original mission was to build affordable Ev's for the masses.
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Again, stop spreading mis-information
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/about?redirect=no
Tesla’s mission is to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy.
Click to expand...



nilagin said:
They only rated the Tesla on straight line speed. Life is not a straigjt line. None of the other cars seemed to have been started off the line with any means of launch control, yet they would all have that as standard.
With It''s supposedly superior low centre of gravity that you keep marvelling about, the Tesla's handling wasn't so great and it was 4wd. By rights it should have been a lot higher up the timed lap board if the car was indeed that good.
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Actually, they had done both straight line and timed around race track, as you've pointed out later on. None of other cars seems to have started with launch control because the Tesla got off the line so fast.
Last time I checked, Audi RS4 had 4wd and it was last between the 3 Germans and Alfa. The £50k EV matches laptime with Aston Martin DB11 and beats Jaguar F-Type R, Ford GT, Porsche 911 GT3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Top_Gear_test_track_Power_Lap_times

Spinning it like a true spin doctor, Mr industry expert working on ICE cars.
 
MatBin said:
Top Gear, also stated an 11 plate Leaf had a range of 35 miles and that wasn't even winter time and I believe I quote, "utterly useless".
To be fair we are talking about an 8 year old car and much like ice diesels they (Leaf) have got better in the intervening years.
No idea what the original range was but clearly 35 miles makes the car and its batteries virtually worthless.
As impressed as I was by the twin motor Tesla 3 in a straight line there is more to making a on engaging car than just making it go quick straightly, I expect the thrust out of the corners was fun though.
A side note, in your calculations did you include & years road tax at £320 pa after the first year due to even the base model 3 being over the threshold?
And of course if even the base model 3 is super fast on acceleration has anyone had one long enough to know how quickly it eats it's tyres?
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Original EPA quoted 73 miles. The first generation (pre-2013 Sunderland built) battery were known to degrade quicker, some even degraded down to triggering the warranty. The added "stuff" wouldn't have helped its range, they were also driving in wintery wet roads. Leaf range drops off like a cliff as speed goes up, it's aerodynamic is shockingly bad, would be worse with that huge spoiler. The real range without modifications and driven locally I'd expect it to be around 50 miles.

Zero mention of rapid charging. When the Leaf was out of juice, I was expecting an education on how properly built-EV can rapid charge quickly and the converted cars can only take 7kW fast charging.
I guess I expected too much actual information from an entertainment show about 3 guys fooling around.

No, I didn't include the £320 pa additional tax on the model 3. I can't find my calculates through the pages anymore, I'd happy to go back and amend it.
The tyre cost would depend entirely on your driving style, gun it off the line all the time and you'll eat the tyres up more, same with the AMG's M's and RS's.

dod said:
very interesting, but the price, ouch :wideyed:
https://www.edie.net/news/8/Prototype-of-solar-car-with-450-mile-range-launched/?utm_source=dailynewsletter, edie daily newsletter&utm_medium=email, email&utm_content=news&utm_campaign=dailynewsletter, 86eb594e06-dailynewsletter_COPY_579
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I saw that last night on Fully Charged. Really interesting car, not so good presenter when riding in their first prototype.

The focus on efficiency is fantastic. We need more efficient cars, we don't need more than 100kWh battery SUV.

It's great to see so many new companies coming out to make cars. It's almost as though EV has lowered barrier to entry and allows more innovation. ;)
 
Motorists spend £56,000 on petrol during their lifetime (the title, be warned though, it's a research by EDF energy, electricity company)
https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/spend-55000-petrol-during-lifetime/

For £50k, you can buy a Model 3 Performance that out performs more expensive German rivals. Then have £5000 left to spend on electricity to power you 200,000 miles (10p/kWh, 4 mi/kWh).

Or £40k on a standard Model 3, £15k on electricity to power you probably a life time of 600,000 miles.
 
wuyanxu said:
Motorists spend £56,000 on petrol during their lifetime
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A somewhat meaningless claim. I have spent £1,734.52 on petrol since April 2015. There is a huge variance in vehicle use across the poplulation.
 
wuyanxu said:
Motorists spend £56,000 on petrol during their lifetime (the title, be warned though, it's a research by EDF energy, electricity company)
https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/spend-55000-petrol-during-lifetime/

For £50k, you can buy a Model 3 Performance that out performs more expensive German rivals. Then have £5000 left to spend on electricity to power you 200,000 miles (10p/kWh, 4 mi/kWh).

Or £40k on a standard Model 3, £15k on electricity to power you probably a life time of 600,000 miles.
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Give everyone a model 3 performance with improved handling then and we will give Musk £100 a month. Can't see him agreeing to that somehow.
 
dod said:
Not been following this particular bit of the conversation but right there is a good argument for interchangeable batteries. Presumably the rest of the car was functional so be a shame to scrap it
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I think the batteries are able to be changed, but not on the roadside.
 
wuyanxu said:
Let's remember who is the one creating confusion:

You have repeatedly refused to give source on the bold statement. Repeatedly saying it's "simple logic", when you have zero evidence that there are any other battery that is in the process of failing.



You are behaving like a flat earther when asked for evidence. "It's simple logic innit"

Here's the actual press release:
https://electrek.co/2019/05/15/tesla-fiire-update-battery-software/




Again, stop spreading mis-information
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/about?redirect=no





Actually, they had done both straight line and timed around race track, as you've pointed out later on. None of other cars seems to have started with launch control because the Tesla got off the line so fast.
Last time I checked, Audi RS4 had 4wd and it was last between the 3 Germans and Alfa. The £50k EV matches laptime with Aston Martin DB11 and beats Jaguar F-Type R, Ford GT, Porsche 911 GT3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Top_Gear_test_track_Power_Lap_times

Spinning it like a true spin doctor, Mr industry expert working on ICE cars.
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That isn't Tesla's original mission statement.
Musk changed the mission statement in 2016.
Having just watched the drag race again, none of the ice cars used launch control. You can distinctly hear engines being revved as the accelerators are pumped, rather than being held at a constant engine speed waiting for launch.
The Ford GT time was set in 2006. It isn't the latest Ford GT which is a lighter, more powerful and faster road going race car.
The "true spin doctor" has taken your misinformation bullcrap, spun it around on you and kicked it into touch, yet again. ;)
 
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I wonder if Nilagin will change his tune re EV vehicles if/when Ford get round to building and selling any?

 
nilagin said:
That isn't Tesla's original mission statement.
Musk changed the mission statement in 2016.
Having just watched the drag race again, none of the ice cars used launch control. You can distinctly hear engines being revved as the accelerators are pumped, rather than being held at a constant engine speed waiting for launch.
The Ford GT time was set in 2006. It isn't the latest Ford GT which is a lighter, more powerful and faster road going race car.
The "true spin doctor" has taken your misinformation bullcrap, spun it around on you and kicked it into touch, yet again. ;)
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Well then, please provide sources to back up your claim. Mr totally not a spin doctor.

Not using launch control doesn't take away the fact comparable ICE cars in the same class, but more expensive than 3 performance, are slower to accelerate.

Rapscallion said:
I wonder if Nilagin will change his tune re EV vehicles if/when Ford get round to building and selling any?
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Ha, if that will be the case, we'll be waiting for a very very long time. :police:
 
wuyanxu said:
Well then, please provide sources to back up your claim. Mr totally not a spin doctor.

Not using launch control doesn't take away the fact comparable ICE cars in the same class, but more expensive than 3 performance, are slower to accelerate.
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I am not claiming anything, I am stating a fact. I thought you were the Tesla expert, but, as usual, your knowledge is sadly lacking.
Make your mind up? One minute you accuse me of being a spin doctor, now you say I am not. So I was right in highlighting your confusion. I never said the Tesla would be slower, I said the difference in acceleration would not have been so much.
You assured us that because of Tesla's superior CoG it would be a better handling car, but it isn't, Chris Harris even had trouble remaining in the seat.
The Tesla is only cheaper because of the government subsidy. The Performance model on Top Gear is around £56900 after the subsidy, not £50k as you wrongfully claimed.
Negotiating a discount on the ice cars could bring the resultant prices a lot closer.
 
So according to Top Gear you only get 50 miles out of an average electric car and then knock on peoples doors to recharge.
No wonder there is so much drivel posted here.
 
nilagin said:
I am not claiming anything, I am stating a fact. I thought you were the Tesla expert, but, as usual, your knowledge is sadly lacking.
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I've linked my source to Tesla website on their mission statement. But you are saying otherwise, so please do provide your source.
wuyanxu said:
Again, stop spreading mis-information
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/about?redirect=no
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nilagin said:
Make your mind up? One minute you accuse me of being a spin doctor, now you say I am not. So I was right in highlighting your confusion.
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It seems you can only dash out sarcasm, but lacks ability to understanding sarcasm.

nilagin said:
You assured us that because of Tesla's superior CoG it would be a better handling car, but it isn't, Chris Harris even had trouble remaining in the seat.
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Last time I checked, sliding around in seat does not mean the car doesn't handle well, just means the seat doesn't fit a particular small person very well. In fact, it suggests the car is handling too well for the fitted seat.

nilagin said:
The Tesla is only cheaper because of the government subsidy. The Performance model on Top Gear is around £56900 after the subsidy, not £50k as you wrongfully claimed.
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Are you sure about that?
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/model3/design#battery
£48,590 after government subsidy.
 
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wuyanxu said:
I've linked my source to Tesla website on their mission statement. But you are saying otherwise, so please do provide your source.





It seems you can only dash out sarcasm, but lacks ability to understanding sarcasm.


Last time I checked, sliding around in seat does not mean the car doesn't handle well, just means the seat doesn't fit a particular small person very well. In fact, it suggests the car is handling too well for the fitted seat.


Are you sure about that?
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/model3/design#battery
£48,590 after government subsidy.
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My source, Tesla
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjAWegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw1lMASGDDmM4WqJGhyyuyI9

Statement changed mid 2016
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjACegQIEhAJ&usg=AOvVaw3g8D_pkfb4tvb9qSxl4epd

Don't use all the toilet paper drying your tears, It's about time you started wiping your own backside.

Seems you have trouble recognising what is and what isn't sarcasm, I wasn't being sarcastic.

Watch Chris Harris driving the car around the track again, you will hear him mention the handling, take a look at photos of the Tesla Model 3 Performance seats, not a great deal of side support in the seat bolsters for a performance model. He also mentions the fact that the car he was driving is the twin motor, awd, £60k Performance model.
 
Rapscallion said:
Funny, my local Ford dealer said they only have a hybrid, no EV's available.
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You never said which country. They are only currently on sale in countries where the size of the market and interest in EV's make it worthwhile.
 
nilagin said:
You never said which country. They are only currently on sale in countries where the size of the market and interest in EV's make it worthwhile.
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:oops: :$:facepalm::sleep: "You never said which country?" Jeez, the one we live in....
 
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nilagin said:
My source, Tesla
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjAWegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw1lMASGDDmM4WqJGhyyuyI9

Statement changed mid 2016
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjACegQIEhAJ&usg=AOvVaw3g8D_pkfb4tvb9qSxl4epd

Don't use all the toilet paper drying your tears, It's about time you started wiping your own backside.

Seems you have trouble recognising what is and what isn't sarcasm, I wasn't being sarcastic.

Watch Chris Harris driving the car around the track again, you will hear him mention the handling, take a look at photos of the Tesla Model 3 Performance seats, not a great deal of side support in the seat bolsters for a performance model. He also mentions the fact that the car he was driving is the twin motor, awd, £60k Performance model.
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Tesla website blog:
"Our goal when we created Tesla a decade ago was the same as it is today: to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport"

The website you've linked:
Tesla Inc.’s Mission Statement
Tesla’s mission statement was “to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable transport.” However, in mid-2016, under Elon Musk’s leadership, the company changed the corporate mission to “to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy.”
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Looks like the change is to incorporate purchase of Solar City, a solar panel company, and highlight the fact they also sell batteries. It is very minor and very different to your (attempt at misinformation) claim:
nilagin said:
Tesla's original mission was to build affordable Ev's for the masses.
Click to expand...



I don't see a £60k 3 Performance available on Tesla website, do you?
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/model3/design#battery
I see the quickest Model 3 with 3.3s 0-60 time starts at £48,590 after government subsidy. Just like the German cars, you can get to £60k if you select every option. But unlike the German cars, this performance version starting price is cheaper.

Meanwhile, C63 starts from £66k, C63s in the show starts from £75k. The Alfa cost from £59k.
https://www.evo.co.uk/mercedes/c63-...eview-bmw-s-m3-challenger-just-upped-its-game
https://www.evo.co.uk/alfa-romeo/17924/alfa-romeo-giulia-quadrifoglio-uk-pricing-now-confirmed

nilagin said:
They are only currently on sale in countries where the size of the market and interest in EV's make it worthwhile.
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So Nissan building the Leaf EV in middle of UK, Renault, Hyundai, Kia, VW, BMW and Tesla must all be stupid to sell EV in UK, because UK market is too small and lacks interest in EV's to make it worthwhile.
 
wuyanxu said:
Tesla website blog:
"Our goal when we created Tesla a decade ago was the same as it is today: to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport"

The website you've linked:


Looks like the change is to incorporate purchase of Solar City, a solar panel company, and highlight the fact they also sell batteries. It is very minor and very different to your (attempt at misinformation) claim:




I don't see a £60k 3 Performance available on Tesla website, do you?
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/model3/design#battery
I see the quickest Model 3 with 3.3s 0-60 time starts at £48,590 after government subsidy. Just like the German cars, you can get to £60k if you select every option. But unlike the German cars, this performance version starting price is cheaper.

Meanwhile, C63 starts from £66k, C63s in the show starts from £75k. The Alfa cost from £59k.
https://www.evo.co.uk/mercedes/c63-...eview-bmw-s-m3-challenger-just-upped-its-game
https://www.evo.co.uk/alfa-romeo/17924/alfa-romeo-giulia-quadrifoglio-uk-pricing-now-confirmed


So Nissan building the Leaf EV in middle of UK, Renault, Hyundai, Kia, VW, BMW and Tesla must all be stupid to sell EV in UK, because UK market is too small and lacks interest in EV's to make it worthwhile.
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Probably Tesla's misinformation on their website again. Odd that Chris Harris referred to the car he was driving as the £60k Performance model, no mention of the car having extras to push the price up.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-revie...ives/tesla-model-3-performance-2019-uk-review
Autocar review on the £56,900 performance model, that's two respected sources against a manufacturer known for giving false pricing information on It's websites.

As those manufacturers are having to rely on their ice sales to cover up the losses from EV sales, let's see if you can work it out for yourself and answer your own question.
 
nilagin said:
Commuters should have a long hard think about taking the train.
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEH82Z0U9yq7ctzYlvm1ujUoqFggEKg4IACoGCAowzdp7ML-3CTCtyxU?hl=en-GB&gl=GB&ceid=GB:en
If there is pollution on the underground, surely there is pollution from trains above ground too. I would imagine trams will also be guilty as well.
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Probably commuters should have a long hard think about all the journeys they make. Apart from those journeys on foot and by bike, I doubt there's a lot of sustainability (or lack of pollution) in any of them.
 
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