Day light LED fresnel lights

[Toxic]

Hi Guys,

Anyone have, use or have any experience of these?

Looking to add one or two to my kit and want some advice.

Thanks.

 

[Phil V]

I saw a demo by Damien Lovegrove and his work with them is impressive.

usual caveats, he's brilliant and he also sells them.

 

[Garry Edwards]

I probably saw the same demo...
He's a very good presenter, and the "real time" images that were part of the demo were in fact images shot previously, and were clearly very retouched. I saw that demo time and time again, because his stand was next to ours at what was then Focussing on Imaging, so I was perhaps able to see things that may not have been obvious to everyone else.

There will be all the usual limitation of using continous lighting, e.g. long shutter speeds and/or high ISO to get enough effective power, light pollution from other light sources. I've never used these tools myself, but I'm not even sure that LED can focus as expected with a fresnel.

 

[boyfalldown]

The Arri lamps work very well .not an led but continuous light source fresnel

Edit in my insomniac state I've been looking round it seems arri and others do led fresnels but I reckon to own a good one you need to spend a lot (£3k plus)

 

[boyfalldown]

I'm not even sure that LED can focus as expected with a fresnel.

Really interested why not? Within the limits of continuous lighting surely it's the lens that matters not the source. I would have though if you're filling the lens properly then it will focus as expected regardless of where the light comes from

 

[Nionyn]

...I'm not even sure that LED can focus as expected with a fresnel.

Modern LED fresnels can behave as "traditional" fresnels.

I've worked on a few theatre productions where LED fresnels were used as part of the rigs. They're fine in terms of focusing and beam characteristics. But they're still not perfect as far as colour and CRI are concerned.
They're also pretty expensive compared to TH or HMI fresnel units, of course - but this is because the LED engine is multi-colour, not just a single-colour LED source (generally RGBW at the very least - sometimes seven or more discrete colours within the one effective source), and because of the electronics necessary to drive such a source and to accurately control its colour and intensity.

I only have a little experience of these LED fresnels - and these are all designed to match TH sources and to produce a wide range of colour, all remotely controlled via DMX512. I do not have any personal experience of any similar units designed to produce only daylight-balanced light. Compared to theatre/TV/films it's perhaps a relatively niche market, I don't know.

But as far as optics and focusing are concerned whatever problems there were appear now to have been ironed out.

 

[Nionyn]

Within the limits of continuous lighting surely it's the lens that matters not the source. I would have though if you're filling the lens properly then it will focus as expected regardless of where the light comes from

There is considerably more to a fresnel light source than the lens.
The lens, its position, size and design are important, certainly, And there are excellent fresnel lenses and dreadful ones. I've probably used many hundreds of different ones over the years
But the size and position of the actual source of light (whether it be a filament in a TH lamp, the arc in an HMI or CSI lamp, or the LED emitter in an LED unit are also critical to the unit's performance.
Then there's the specific geometry of the reflector behind them (where present), and its precise alignment with the actual light source and lens.

I would have though if you're filling the lens properly then it will focus as expected regardless of where the light comes from

One might think so (and quite understandably), but in reality that is very far from the case.

 

[Toxic]

Thanks for the insight fellas, I may have to rethink this as I want them as an additional light source to mix with ambient as more of a fill to boost shadows etc.

 

[boyfalldown]

There is considerably more to a fresnel light source than the lens.
The lens, its position, size and design are important, certainly, And there are excellent fresnel lenses and dreadful ones. I've probably used many hundreds of different ones over the years
But the size and position of the actual source of light (whether it be a filament in a TH lamp, the arc in an HMI or CSI lamp, or the LED emitter in an LED unit are also critical to the unit's performance.
Then there's the specific geometry of the reflector behind them (where present), and its precise alignment with the actual light source and lens.


One might think so (and quite understandably), but in reality that is very far from the case.

Which is all of course correct.but non of which explains why using an led as your light source would present more problems (or not work) then any other light source


I guess that's what I fail to understand. If everything ibuilt from the ground up for an led light source (& designed to use one) why would it not work as opposed to a different light source?

Edit:-

I think when you said

But as far as optics and focusing are concerned whatever problems there were appear now to have been ironed out.

That answered what I was asking. Your comments about colour consistency etc. made interesting reading though

 

[Garry Edwards]

I probably saw the same demo...
He's a very good presenter, and the "real time" images that were part of the demo were in fact images shot previously, and were clearly very retouched. I saw that demo time and time again, because his stand was next to ours at what was then Focussing on Imaging, so I was perhaps able to see things that may not have been obvious to everyone else.

There will be all the usual limitation of using continous lighting, e.g. long shutter speeds and/or high ISO to get enough effective power, light pollution from other light sources. I've never used these tools myself,

Modern LED fresnels can behave as "traditional" fresnels.

I've worked on a few theatre productions where LED fresnels were used as part of the rigs. They're fine in terms of focusing and beam characteristics. But they're still not perfect as far as colour and CRI are concerned.
They're also pretty expensive compared to TH or HMI fresnel units, of course - but this is because the LED engine is multi-colour, not just a single-colour LED source (generally RGBW at the very least - sometimes seven or more discrete colours within the one effective source), and because of the electronics necessary to drive such a source and to accurately control its colour and intensity.

I only have a little experience of these LED fresnels - and these are all designed to match TH sources and to produce a wide range of colour, all remotely controlled via DMX512. I do not have any personal experience of any similar units designed to produce only daylight-balanced light. Compared to theatre/TV/films it's perhaps a relatively niche market, I don't know.

But as far as optics and focusing are concerned whatever problems there were appear now to have been ironed out.

.

I should add that I've visited a state of the art factory in Shenzen, Southern China, where they have designed and made a VERY professional LED fresnel, supplied to the BBC and similar, so yes it can be done. But there's a world of difference between what can be done regardless of cost, and what is done to a budget - I doubt whether there are many people, outside of public service broadcasting, who could or would spend many thousands on a single light.

 

[Nionyn]

I should add that I've visited a state of the art factory in Shenzen, Southern China, where they have designed and made a VERY professional LED fresnel, supplied to the BBC and similar, so yes it can be done.

Cool!
Yes indeed, it can be done - at a price (which I obviously don't need to tell you! )

But there's a world of difference between what can be done regardless of cost, and what is done to a budget - I doubt whether there are many people, outside of public service broadcasting, who could or would spend many thousands on a single light.

Oh god, yes - absolutely spot on there, Garry!
There are, of course, lights costing that kind of money in regular everyday use in many thousands of theatres and TV studios across the world, but they are usually remotely controllable, move, can use many colours and gobos, prisms etc. They do considerably more than a standard fresnel unit is capable of.
But in those situations they do actually save time and money, and are also, in fact, safer due to the lack of necessity for access at height after they've been rigged. I work from time to time with a small touring theatre company who paid that kind of money for half a dozen LED profile spots, and have been very pleased with them.
Basically, they're worth the cost in some very specific situations.

But for bog-standard stills photography the price of cutting-edge lighting technology will always be somewhat too rich for the vast majority of people.
And, frankly, it's not necessary either. There are cheaper and proven technologies that effectively provide solutions to whichever perceived "problems" are seen to exist. And they are usually (though not always) flash-based.

New technology such as LED always gets better and cheaper, naturally. That's the way of the world.
LEDs might seem like an attractive solution to real problems (and they are, in fact, to some), but as far as stills photography is concerned we're really not there yet.

 

[Garry Edwards]

Yes, the ones I saw were fully remote controlled, could be focussed anywhere between a focussing spot and a flood (as well as a fresnel) and could project any colour.
In the dim and distant past I've worked in production studios, and I know from experience that the access problems, with the very high ceilings, plus H&S issues, justify the cost of full remote control and new technology.
The point that I keep trying to make, although it seems to fall on deaf ears, is that all of the affordable LED sold on Ebay and by most online sellers, although marketed as "professional" are in fact just junk and not fit for purpose - professional ones are available but they are still far too expensive to be viable for most people.
It's weird really, just about everyone understands that a £10,000 family car can't do the same job as a F1 racing car, but they don't understand that this also applies to cheap lighting

 

[Nionyn]

Once again I agree with your every word there, Garry.

I've used plenty of cheap (£200 - £400) LED lights for theatre work. But nearly always for colour and effects. TH is still the standard in most of the industry for naturalistic lighting of people - for the colour reasons mentioned above and also by you in numerous other threads. I have lit an opera using only LEDs (RGBW PARs), but opera is a strange world all to itself.

As you tactfully point out, all affordable photographic LED lights sold on eBay and elsewhere as "professional" are dreadful. I wouldn't touch any of them.
In fact, if anything is actually marketed as "professional" I am immediately suspicious and steer clear.

It's weird really, just about everyone understands that a £10,000 family car can't do the same job as a F1 racing car, but they don't understand that this also applies to cheap lighting

Once again, spot on.
Further, I've always been utterly baffled by people who will happily spend a small fortune on an expensive camera and lenses from a mainstream manufacturer, but then insist on buying the cheapest possible lighting gear - still expecting it to perform and last as well as their camera. Still, I suppose eBay and manufacturers such as Yongnuo are totally happy with this situation...

Another very basic fact that many photographers seem to ignore is that LED lighting of any kind is likely to cost more than the 'traditional' equivalent.
Even domestic LED GU10 downlighter bulbs are many times more expensive than their TH equivalents - and they're also, without exception, much much poorer in terms of colour rendering. I've only very recently found GU10 LEDs that I'm happy to live with, and they definitely weren't cheap!
I still wouldn't touch them for photography, though.