Full frame or not?

I can see FF DSLRs having an OVF with the option of switching on an EVF within the viewfinder. Best of both worlds and technically possible.
 
You will get varying response to this question. I think the camera you buy should be the best possible one for your budget. Get a full frame if you can afford it, go on and start big.
 
Brazo said:
Nikon D750 seems a perfect all rounder, when Nikon *upgrade* to EVF i'd definatly consider changing systems!

*before I get flamed for me An EVF is a very real upgrade, for you maybe not:)
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they allow you to see in the dark with huge ISO's which is pretty cool, the downside is however responsive, they just aren't as nice to look through as an "old school" view finder for me, maybe at the end of the day, they are still a screen compared to looking through traditional glass :p
 
For me it's all about the image and EVF's allow the image as it'll be captured to be seen and they also allow detail which can't be seen by eye to be seen. To be honest I struggle to see any advantage at all for OVF's now, the refresh rate and staggering in low light of EVF's is irritating but compared to not being able to see the detail through an OVF I'll take a hesitation in refresh every time.

I suppose for someone shooting fast sports or birds in flight in low light an OVF may have an advantage over a staggering a bit EVF as you can just follow the vague action through the OVF and spray and pray and hope you've got the shot. Other than that the only other issue I can think of is if you don't shade the eye piece and light gets in and stops you seeing the EVF. These things aside, and they're not issues for me, it's EVF every time for me from now on.
 
woof woof said:
For me it's all about the image and EVF's allow the image as it'll be captured to be seen and they also allow detail which can't be seen by eye to be seen. To be honest I struggle to see any advantage at all for OVF's now, the refresh rate and staggering in low light of EVF's is irritating but compared to not being able to see the detail through an OVF I'll take a hesitation in refresh every time.

I suppose for someone shooting fast sports or birds in flight in low light an OVF may have an advantage over a staggering a bit EVF as you can just follow the vague action through the OVF and spray and pray and hope you've got the shot. Other than that the only other issue I can think of is if you don't shade the eye piece and light gets in and stops you seeing the EVF. These things aside, and they're not issues for me, it's EVF every time for me from now on.
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But DSLRs can also do this in Live View (live exposure).
 
odd jim said:
But DSLRs can also do this in Live View (live exposure).
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If holding a DSLR at arms length is your thing then I suppose to a degree they can but in good light? How will you see the screen? You could put a cape over your head and the camera I suppose. Old time like.
 
woof woof said:
If holding a DSLR at arms length is your thing then I suppose to a degree they can but in good light? How will you see the screen? You could put a cape over your head and the camera I suppose. Old time like.
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No need for the Cape, as much as I like wearing it, just turn the brightness up, works for me on my 6d in bright daylight where I use it to fine focus my 14mm. I can see where seeing it through a VF is better but as I might have said in this thread (or it might have been another?) the advantage is only minor.

I can see the next generation having duel switchable OVF / EVF's.
 
Hmmm. Back screen shooting just isn't for me for 99% of the time anyway. I prefer to hold the camera in the more modern traditional style, squashing my nose... I do use the tilting screen and shoot from odd angles now and again but mostly I'm a nose squasher as I find I'm more stable and happier that way.

The reason I mention viewing in good light is that it can be an issue and certainly I've read complaints of not being able to see the EVF in good light so I'd imagine that any light which would adversely effect a CSC EVF will have a much multiplied effect on a non shaded back screen.

As for the OVF/EVF option, the only camera or cameras I know of that do it are Fuji. I believe the EVF slides about on a little rail.
 
for me there is a difference in EVF and OVF, a screen is just different to look at and there is still a slight lag (very little) when I played with the latest models like an a7ii or fuji offerings. I can't put my finger on why exactly but it just feels different and I prefer the OVF despite all the objective measures suggesting EVF is better... maybe cos they are still pixels on an EVF that I am looking at, not real life... dunno :confused:
 
FlyingShrapnel said:
for me there is a difference in EVF and OVF, a screen is just different to look at and there is still a slight lag (very little) when I played with the latest models like an a7ii or fuji offerings. I can't put my finger on why exactly but it just feels different and I prefer the OVF despite all the objective measures suggesting EVF is better... maybe cos they are still pixels on an EVF that I am looking at, not real life... dunno :confused:
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As an early adopter of Sony cameras i've come to truly love the EVF. I found my old A350 at the bottom of a cupboard a few weeks back, that has OVF and I couldn't believe how much I dislike using it now I've been spoilt with all the benefits of EVF

I guess if I'd always used OVF though I'd feel the same as you and would find the EVF the jarring experience, it's probably at least 50% just down to familiarity.
 
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I was at Park Cameras at the weekend, and had I play with an A7s. I stuck it in 5fps continuous and took some shots while panning quickly. I have to say I still much prefer the optical view of a DSLR; as much as EVFs might have improved I still found the slight lack of 'real time' disconcerting. If I was mostly doing landscape/portraits/etc, it wouldn't bother me, but i do too much action orientated stuff.

Also, for all the criticism of Canon's sensors, it's hardly been a tsunami of people fleeing to Nikon or the mirrorless options. If nothing else, the Canon shooter still has a depth and breadth of lens choices unmatched elsewhere.
 
The W said:
I was at Park Cameras at the weekend, and had I play with an A7s. I stuck it in 5fps continuous and took some shots while panning quickly. I have to say I still much prefer the optical view of a DSLR; as much as EVFs might have improved I still found the slight lack of 'real time' disconcerting. If I was mostly doing landscape/portraits/etc, it wouldn't bother me, but i do too much action orientated stuff.

Also, for all the criticism of Canon's sensors, it's hardly been a tsunami of people fleeing to Nikon or the mirrorless options. If nothing else, the Canon shooter still has a depth and breadth of lens choices unmatched elsewhere.
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Yes but Canon cannot simply rest on there sensor tech.

They HAVE to match or beat the competitors when the 5DS(already looks doubtful) or the 1dz? 5d4 etc.

Those next generation DSLR need to deliver or else people will start fleeing to Nikon or sony etc.
 
jonneymendoza said:
Yes but Canon cannot simply rest on there sensor tech.

They HAVE to match or beat the competitors when the 5DS(already looks doubtful) or the 1dz? 5d4 etc.

Those next generation DSLR need to deliver or else people will start fleeing to Nikon or sony etc.
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If they haven't already why is it now suddenly crunch time?
 
jonneymendoza said:
What do you mean?
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I think he means it's been obvious for some time that Canon are behind in sensor tech, and that people still buy them because they're still great cameras. Canon users who've stayed loyal have done so out of choice for a long time, why will the next generation become a tipping point?
 
Regarding EVF's. I have been using Fuji over the last couple of years and made a change back to Nikon before Christmas for the longer lenses available.

When I had the Xpro1 it has a OVF & EVF and for me I was suffering headaches when using the EVF on that camera. My optician put it down to the slow refresh rate of the EVF. So when the XT1 came out I bought soon after release and the EVF is something else IMO, and for me, the D750 I own would be the perfect camera if it had the EVF. I found the XT1 EVF had little or no lag for my use which is primarily bird photography.

I can't use live view on my D750 unless the camera is stabalized by a tripod or similar. I can see EVF/OVF possibly becoming the norm on cameras, Fuji have done it with the Xpro1 it's just that EVF was too slow. Will be interesting to see what the Xpro2 brings when released.
 
I've been using the Olympus E-M5 EVF for the last couple of years and not had any noticeable lag. So I was surprised by the comments. But maybe older cameras with EVFs had problems before.
 
There's a definite lag even with modern EVFs. I find shooting anything fast moving is very counter intuitive with an EVF.
 
Phil V said:
I think he means it's been obvious for some time that Canon are behind in sensor tech, and that people still buy them because they're still great cameras. Canon users who've stayed loyal have done so out of choice for a long time, why will the next generation become a tipping point?
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This.

Surely it would take a seismic change in a camera's performance to tempt users to jettison all their lenses, accessories and time spent mastering the gear. All these changes are just incremental improvements and I cant see them being enough to make people change en masse
 
odd jim said:
There's a definite lag even with modern EVFs. I find shooting anything fast moving is very counter intuitive with an EVF.
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100% there is a lag..but are these cameras aimed at sport and fast action?

EVF is still relatively new and will no doubt improve to the point where fast action isnt a problem. As I shoot still subjects most of the time its not a problem...but if its moving, the 1dx or 1dmk3 will come out to play.

The new compact system cameras are coming in a big way, and currently I feel like Canon are going to miss the train as their releases seem to be very little and too late.. as usual.
 
quango2k said:
100% there is a lag..but are these cameras aimed at sport and fast action?

EVF is still relatively new and will no doubt improve to the point where fast action isnt a problem. As I shoot still subjects most of the time its not a problem...but if its moving, the 1dx or 1dmk3 will come out to play.

The new compact system cameras are coming in a big way, and currently I feel like Canon are going to miss the train as their releases seem to be very little and too late.. as usual.
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EVFs aren't new, I had one in a Fuji ten years ago? (And I still have that camera!)

I'd say some are aimed at fast action, as inappropriate as they are, otherwise why boast having 10+ FPS?
 
ok, maybe compact system cameras with EVF are relatively new. And with them gaining more popularity the tech in them will most likely continue to improve rapidly.
 
quango2k said:
100% there is a lag..but are these cameras aimed at sport and fast action?

EVF is still relatively new and will no doubt improve to the point where fast action isnt a problem. As I shoot still subjects most of the time its not a problem...but if its moving, the 1dx or 1dmk3 will come out to play.

The new compact system cameras are coming in a big way, and currently I feel like Canon are going to miss the train as their releases seem to be very little and too late.. as usual.
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You're right Rick.
I think what gets on peoples nerves are the EVF users who fail to see the limitations, usually because they're not a problem for them. So they can't see why other people have a different set of priorities.

I too think that one day the EVF will be at least an option on all cameras, but for now the disadvantages matter to too many people.
 
Phil V said:
I think he means it's been obvious for some time that Canon are behind in sensor tech, and that people still buy them because they're still great cameras. Canon users who've stayed loyal have done so out of choice for a long time, why will the next generation become a tipping point?
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Not really out of choice. Some are afraid of selling all there canon invested stuff to shift and move.

It's not like buying a mobile phone and upgrading and moving to a new eco system ie from Apple to Android.

This is photography. It's a lot of hassle to move to a new brand.

You say not many do but I disagree. Many have already switched brands.

Keep lagging behind and more and more will leave canon .
 
Phil V said:
You're right Rick.
I think what gets on peoples nerves are the EVF users who fail to see the limitations, usually because they're not a problem for them. So they can't see why other people have a different set of priorities.

I too think that one day the EVF will be at least an option on all cameras, but for now the disadvantages matter to too many people.
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Matter to some. How many is anyone's guess.
 
jonneymendoza said:
Not really out of choice. Some are afraid of selling all there canon invested stuff to shift and move.

It's not like buying a mobile phone and upgrading and moving to a new eco system ie from Apple to Android.

This is photography. It's a lot of hassle to move to a new brand.

You say not many do but I disagree. Many have already switched brands.

Keep lagging behind and more and more will leave canon .
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Agreed, I have seen quite a few blogs of pro's moving to Sony for instance. The biggest of all maybe Trey Ratcliff..although his work is really in one field of travel HDR photography but I have seen many studio guys make the leap and although subjective (as no one wants to admit they made a mistake) none of them have anything bad to say about the experience.

I'm going to keep both systems and use both until I see which bag gets picked up the most, then find what limits me to always taking that kit. So far, I am loving the A7r and for sure I will get the MK2 when it surfaces.
 
quango2k said:
Agreed, I have seen quite a few blogs of pro's moving to Sony for instance. The biggest of all maybe Trey Ratcliff..although his work is really in one field of travel HDR photography but I have seen many studio guys make the leap and although subjective (as no one wants to admit they made a mistake) none of them have anything bad to say about the experience.

I'm going to keep both systems and use both until I see which bag gets picked up the most, then find what limits me to always taking that kit. So far, I am loving the A7r and for sure I will get the MK2 when it surfaces.
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Hi.

I forgot the photographer but there is a famous photographer known for taking many striking images of famous celebrates and people all around the world who shifted to Sony from I think was from Canon or possibly nikon.

He basically uses a7 series camera and he hasn't looked back. He wrote a user guide for the a7 cameras.

Here is the bloke in question:

http://briansmith.com/gear/cameras/

Check out his blog as i read one where he made the switch and why.

You see for some, its not easy to fully switch brands. I imagine that lots of people who do not switch is due to the fact that they cant for whatever reason(too much gear invested in canon and cant/too lazy to sell it all and learn and buy a new system).

What is great abotu some of these mirrorless cameras particularly the A7 ones is the ability to use existing canon/nikon stuff with it.

My a7s can fire all my existing canon flashes . i am about to try out if i can use the RT trigger by canon on my a7s. if i can i am all set as i can manually change every flash connected to it via the RT triggers built in screen and ui.

At the rate in which mirrorless tech is taking off, you cant bet against a 1dx equivalent mirrorless appearing in the future.
 
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jonneymendoza said:
Not really out of choice. Some are afraid of selling all there canon invested stuff to shift and move.

It's not like buying a mobile phone and upgrading and moving to a new eco system ie from Apple to Android.

This is photography. It's a lot of hassle to move to a new brand.
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That's a matter of opinion, while I've no doubt someone who's highly specialised might argue otherwise at a general level of usage there's far more similarities than differences between Canon and Nikon (except for the beep on focus, I do miss that). So unless there's a burning need for something or going to be an obvious boost to what you can make, why bother?

Your example isn't quite accurate, if you switch mobile any investment you have will probably be lost as the software and hardware is locked to that platform or you personally but in Photography software will usually remain useful for any system and any system specific hardware you have (lenses, flashes etc) tend to be very easy to sell or exchange.

jonneymendoza said:
You say not many do but I disagree. Many have already switched brands.

Keep lagging behind and more and more will leave canon .
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No one would argue that having a superior product won't help you increase market share but there's an urgency to your comments I don't understand, even if company a releases a product which is vastly superior to company b's it takes several years for the result to really impact market share.

So sure give it another 5-10 years and you may see what you're concerned about happening (at which point there may be other issues to worry about) but if Canon addressed your concerns within a few years do you really think they will have lost much?
 
simonbarker said:
That's a matter of opinion, while I've no doubt someone who's highly specialised might argue otherwise at a general level of usage there's far more similarities than differences between Canon and Nikon (except for the beep on focus, I do miss that). So unless there's a burning need for something or going to be an obvious boost to what you can make, why bother?

Your example isn't quite accurate, if you switch mobile any investment you have will probably be lost as the software and hardware is locked to that platform or you personally but in Photography software will usually remain useful for any system and any system specific hardware you have (lenses, flashes etc) tend to be very easy to sell or exchange.



No one would argue that having a superior product won't help you increase market share but there's an urgency to your comments I don't understand, even if company a releases a product which is vastly superior to company b's it takes several years for the result to really impact market share.

So sure give it another 5-10 years and you may see what you're concerned about happening (at which point there may be other issues to worry about) but if Canon addressed your concerns within a few years do you really think they will have lost much?
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Hiya.

for mobile devices, many applications data are transfered to whatever system you so desire as lots of apps have some kind of cloud based storage/account. transfering it to a new eco system is dead easy.

Mobile phones also do not have many if any dedicated addons or accesories built specifically for that eco system so again you can chop and change between eco systems every week without much if any hassle.

Camera systems are way different.
You got lenses, radio triggers, flashes, batteries and even sometimes memory cards that all need to be considered.

For example, if you was to change say a 1dx to a A7 series sony , you need new memory, lenses, batteries etc and you would need to sell all the canon related stuff.

Some people really are too lazy to do that. Not everyone sells and buys through the likes of here or Bay.

You also have people who just do not want to learn a new system too even though a professional/expert photographer could easily learn a whole new system within a few weeks(its not rocket science after all).

Another thing, You say give canon 5-10 to make improvements on certain aspects. Well the next generation of camera's are going to be released within a year and already one of them(the 5ds/5dr ) does not seem to address the issue(DR).

And if the 5d4 and the next 1d fails to do that also, then guess what. You are going to have to wait anotehr 5 years for canon to release the next next generation of pro camera's.

This in itself will force more people to jump ship.

You simply cannot rest on your lurals. And such as life, nothing or no one stays on top forever.

Who knows, maybe in 15 years time Sony will be the number one photography company but Canon need to stop that by not resting on there lurals and delivering the same tech as there competitor.

Another thing, what if the a9 series sony or whatever next gen camera they have will come up with even better IQ? Then canon will lag behind again assuming that the 5d4 etc will have same DR/ISO as the current a7 series camera.

Its good to have competition and for me anyway i am not loyal to no brand whatsoever. Some are though for various reasons but for i think its pointless . my motto in life in buying products is to buy whatever is best for you, not what brand it is.
 
There's absolutely nothing wrong with Canons new products, jeez!

I shoot Canon as it gives me what I want (I still shoot with 6 year old Canons as well as current models).

I could up sticks tomorrow to any other system but I don't as - 1, it's pointless and 2, I don't want to
 
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odd jim said:
There's absolutely nothing wrong with Canons new products, jeez!

I shoot Canon as it gives me what I want (I still shoot with 6 year old Canons as well as current models).

I could up sticks tomorrow to any other system but I don't as - 1, it's pointless and 2, I don't want to
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So canon and everyone else should stop innovating then as there is nothing wrong with the current gear.

Matter of fact. Every tech product should come to a halt as the majority of tech has nothing wrong with them..
 
jonneymendoza said:
So canon and everyone else should stop innovating then as there is nothing wrong with the current gear.

Matter of fact. Every tech product should come to a halt as the majority of tech has nothing wrong with them..
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When did I say that?

I was responding to those criticising Canon for not improving their cropped sensors (by much), and your comment about people not switching as they are "afraid to switch" because they have already invested in kit, which is silly, as anyone can switch!
 
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odd jim said:
There's absolutely nothing wrong with Canons new products, jeez!

I shoot Canon as it gives me what I want (I still shoot with 6 year old Canons as well as current models).

I could up sticks tomorrow to any other system but I don't as - 1, it's pointless and 2, I don't want to
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..don't then :)

If canon is good for you then so be it. For me, the best camera is the one I have with me (that old chestnut), so hulking my 1dx with whatever lens won't be coming up into the mountains, or to family parties, zoo's etc etc.

Actually, I took my 1d3 with the 70-200 f2.8 with me to maxwell recently..1, my back was ruined by the end of the day and 2, I looked like a nob carrying it about :) granted, not my best choice to take out with me lol
 
quango2k said:
..don't then :)

If canon is good for you then so be it. For me, the best camera is the one I have with me (that old chestnut), so hulking my 1dx with whatever lens won't be coming up into the mountains, or to family parties, zoo's etc etc.

Actually, I took my 1d3 with the 70-200 f2.8 with me to maxwell recently..1, my back was ruined by the end of the day and 2, I looked like a nob carrying it about :) granted, not my best choice to take out with me lol
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Maxwell? Or Marwell? If so, I used to regularly take my xxd series bodies and 70-200 there!
 
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Haha, yes, Marwell..thank you apple autocorrect :)

Another thing I get worried about is my 1dx and 5d is they just scream 'money'..I've been mugged for a camera before, not a pleasant day. The Sony is a little more discreet :)
 
No need to worry about that now. Even the muggers have gone off Canon.

Oooh! Sorry Canon fans. Didn't mean to. Couldn't resist making a joke. Of course muggers like Canons. Actually didn't mean to make fun of being mugged either. It just slipped out.
 
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