Large Format photography group - From "zero to hero!"

essexash said:
So what are the sharpest lenses to get on a lens board? Ive got a couple of Schneider lenses a 90mm Super Anguon and a 150mm Kreuznach and theyre fine but its just a niggling thought in the back of my mind that there are better out there. You know where you are with nikon lenses but i dont know anything about LF ones.
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I'm sure Woodsy and Ed Bray will be along soon to share their experiences with a huge variety of LF lenses.
 
RaglanSurf said:
I'm sure Woodsy and Ed Bray will be along soon to share their experiences with a huge variety of LF lenses.
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:D

I wish I could say I've owned and used loads of LF lenses, but I'm afraid I can only comment on the meagre 4 I have used.

So my first lens was a Schneider 90mm F/8 Super Angulon. A very sharp lens with no noticeable CA. My other (current) 3 lenses are all Nikons. I have the 90mm F/4.5 SW, 150mm F/5.6 W and the 210mm F/5.6 W. The 150mm is very sharp, but the 90mm and 210mm are out of my mind sharp. To put it into context, I took a shot from the top of the cliff at Mupe Bay with the 150mm (at probably around F/22?) and had it printed at 40x60 inches from a scan. Looking at the print, you can see the windows of the folly at Kimmeridge. Do you even need sharper than that?!
 
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Woodsy said:
:D

I wish I could say I've owned and used loads of LF lenses, but I'm afraid I can only comment on the meagre 4 I have used.

So my first lens was a Schneider 90mm F/8 Super Angulon. A very sharp lens with no noticeable CA. My other (current) 3 lenses are all Nikons. I have the 90mm F/4.5 SW, 150mm F/5.6 W and the 210mm F/5.6 W. The 150mm is very sharp, but the 90mm and 210mm are out of my mind sharp. To put it into context, I took a shot from the top of the cliff at Mupe Bay with the 150mm (at probably around F/22?) and had it printed at 40x60 inches from a scan. Looking at the print, you can see the windows of the folly at Kimmeridge. Do you even need sharper than that?!
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I would like to see that (then subsequently burn money on LF)
 
For sharpness on 5x4, my go-to lenses are the Rodenstock Sironar-S's (135mm and 180mm).
Very close 3rd choice is my Schneider SS XL 110mm which I use when I need a much larger image circle - this one can also stretch to 10x8 at a push.
 
One thing about LF is that by and large all lenses fit; and they've been made for over 150 years. That gives a lot of lens makers and types. Another is that you don't have to enlarge much. At the degrees of enlargement needed for 5x4, I'm happy with the prints from a box camera with a plastic lens. Sharpness is after all only one quality.

You probably can't go far wrong with any of the modern lenses: Schneider, Rodenstock, Cooke, Nikon (yes, that one!), Fuji etc. etc. What you do get with newer lenses is more coverage (= bigger and heavier) and better performance with colour film. If Robert White still have copies, you might like to try to get "Use of Historic Lenses in Contemporary Photography" to give a few older names, and the author's "take" on lenses.
 
I thought I had 27 lenses but counting again it seems it is 25 ... then I did give three away the other year ....

As they don't have a great value I tend to keep rather than sell ones that get replaced by nominally better lenses and often it is worth having different types of lenses in the same focal length; to illustrate I have four 150mm lenses the first I brought came with a camera and is a Rodenstock Sironar late sixties or early seventies single coated Plasmat it is fine but not really used since I picked up a 150mm Sinaron W which is multicoated and as it is a 80 degree Plasmat has a much wider image circle. The Sinaron W and the Rodenstock branded equivalent have demonstrably better edge sharpness but were not made for long and command considerably higher prices. The other two 150's are a Nikon 150SW and a Konica Hexagon GRII the Nikon has huge coverage for 10x8 and the Konica is good for Macro.

Mostly you can not go wrong with lenses from the big four as mentioned and its particular lenses that might stand out in a range from the Nikon's say the 65mm SW F4 is the brightest of the 65mm lenses and the 120mm SW F8 is the widest truly useable lens on 10x8 and lots of people love the 90 F8 SW for being small and still having the coverage of a f5.6 lens. Of the Schneider lens I have the 47XL stands out as it is the widest lens to cover 5x4 however it is interesting to note that the XL lenses would not necessarily always be the sharpest choice as I remember being pointed out some where in the right circumstances the 90 F5.6 SA will be sharper than the XL version. Of the Rodenstock lenses I have as already mentioned the W series stand out also a 300mm Macro Sinaron although you can use any LF lens for macro ones actually corrected for it do give better performance. I only have one Fuji lens which is a 210mm F5.6 W (inside lettering) briefly in the late 70's Fuji also had a line of 80 degree plasmats and like the Rodenstock lens they have a high reputation for sharpness and larger useful image circle.


If there are any designs to avoid I would say it would be the longer Tessar designs such as the Nikon M300 and any telephoto types. People use the M300 and think it is sharp which it is but it is not as sharp as a Plasmat but then it is a hell of a lot lighter. For really long lenses the so called processes lenses are often much sharper than any of the telephotos which tend to be sort after by people using 5x4 wooden field cameras that have severe limitations in using longer lenses. At 600mm I have a Apo Ronar F9 which is huge but very sharp while the longest lens I have deserves a special mention it is a 750mm Docter F14 Apo Germinar, Docter Optics brought the Carl Zeiss GDR plant that manufactured large format lenses after the German reunification and for a few short years produced some superb lenses there is an interesting article about them by Arne Croell

Trying to get the sharpest LF glass as long as it isn't in a huge number of focal lengths probably is not insanely expensive but can be more about the right lens for the application rather than the ultimate sharpest lens per se.


Just to qualify I have such a large number of lenses as they are Sinar DB mounted this seriously decreases their value to such an extent it is not uncommon for lenses that are thousands of pounds new to sell for 50 - 100 pounds secondhand and indeed once I brought a 180, 210 and 360 Symar S for 20 as they had a very slight trace of fungus none of which took ore than about 20 minutes to sort out.
 
I have got some. Unfortunately, due to health problems I havent been able to do any photography for a few weeks. Hope to get up and running again soon, not least to try and enter the POTY competition.

And this is on my to do list also, so hope to get some results to share soon.
 
a cautionary tale. I do a lot of close focus stuff with my wista which means over extending the bellows. It never occurred to me that there is a seam running along the length of it till today when i set up to do some more shots. The seam had split and light was flooding in all over the place. After a bit of contact glue and some clips its now resting overnight. Im guessing the age of the glue holding it all together and the over extentions just split it up. Something to watch out for if you do the same...



You can get some "cheap" bellows from china for £60 but im hoping the glue does the trick.
 
Woodsy said:
So then chaps... (Mainly looking at @Steve here :D )

This stuff linked to in Steve's post:

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/th...-from-zero-to-hero.504894/page-3#post-5899489

For anyone that bought some, how have the results been from this stuff? What's the dynamic range like? Would love to see some results :)
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So this was my first attempt at a still life using the Harman Direct Positive paper:


Still life by SteveGam, on Flickr

Having googled its use, it seems relatively successful for certain types of still life and portraits giving a period feel to the results. Not seen anyone using it much for landscape work. It's currently out of production (http://www.ilfordphoto.com/products/product.asp?n=65) and I haven't seen anyone with stocks of it. I've only got a few sheets left and hope that it is put back into production as the results are quite pleasing.
 
Well DP Review today mentions a proposed Wanderlust 4*5 camera that appears to measure about 5*6 and weigh 300 gm! Compatible with standard film holders, comes with a pinhole but also takes Schneider 90mm lens. I'm not sure what any of that means, but it sounds exciting! $149!!
 
It's been bubbling around on Kickstarter for a while, I check out the site occasionally just to see if it's come to fruition. It's tempting although like the Ilford 4x5 pinhole it does take up quite a lot of space.

I might treat myself though :D

Oh and I knew there was another reason I hadn't got too excited yet, they don't ship outside the US and Canada :(
 
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Damn shame really. At least they acknowledge that other countries will be available soon though. While I do love the idea of this, and indeed while it might appeal to some people who have a different approach to photography, I personally would struggle to justify this to myself. Given the price of film (especially colour), I want to make full use of the movements appropriate to a scene on a "proper" LF camera. Now that I think about it though, if I had some cheap, OOD B&W film, I could be tempted :D
 
it would of been nice if they had put some movement on the front bit somehow. But it looks worth a go for the price. If you can put a decent lens on the front then all the better.
 
Just how little can one get started with a 4x5 set up? I'm half considering more GAS...
 
It's not "very" cheap, as there are not many transferable bits from smaller formats, other than perhaps a light meter and a dev tank ( if you home dev ). If you wanted to scan, you'll need a compatible scanner. As far as cameras go, they can be had for a few hundred pounds (more or less) and lenses vary from a few tens of pounds if you're lucky, up to hundreds. If you had a budget in mind, I'm sure we could all make suggestions for parts you'll need and keep within budget :)
 
Let's say I were to sell the RB67 (don't tell it I'm considering cheating on it). That would be a body a few backs and a handful of lenses. Call it £450 or so, I could mess around scanning in two parts keeping the V500 and I believe you can do a 4x5 in a Patterson Tank so I'm not too worried by that.

So 4x5 "body", a wideish lens, a couple of backs. Missed anything?
 
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Generally the cheapest way into 4x5 are monorails, they're obviously not as portable as field cameras but unless you want to go up mountains you could pick up a very nice kit for not too much money.

You could certainly pick up a basic set up if you moved on your RB.

Don't forget to factor in dark slides, focus cloth (big black t-shirt) loupe and a decent tripod, which you've probably got already as you've got an RB.
 
Be careful, it's very addictive. Once you try it and understand how the movements can work to your favour you will want to try even larger formats. I started with a cheap 4x5 monorail, soon moved on to a 4x5 field camera then 5x7 monorail, then 8x10 monorail (everything in the UK is expensive for 8x10 and everything is a whole lot larger too) then settled back to a 5x7 Field Camera with an additional 4x5 back to enable me to use 4x5 too (some film stocks are not available in 5x7).

Fortunately some of the lenses I had bought could be used over all the formats so I still have many of them.

If you do decide to go to 4x5 I have a 90mm Super Angulon spare that you can have cheap to get you started, the Glass is fine as is the shutter but the barrel is quite marked, it is in a 00 sized shutter but has a 00-0 adapter on it to enable it's use in a standard Copal 0 lensboard. This is a good wide angle to get started with and has a decent amount of coverage for movements on 4x5. I can also chuck in some OOD 4x5 film to get you started with.

You can process 4x sheets of 4x5 'Taco Style' in a Paterson Universal Tank but it is a bit of a squash, much better to use a Paterson 3 Spiral Tank for this, if you have a Paterson Orbital Tank, you can process 4x sheets of 4x5 in that too.

Join the www.largeformatphotography.info/forum it has an amazing amount of experience and talent there and they are very willing to help. They also have a good buy/sell section and you will be able to get some of your stuff there (there is a minimum time and posts for access though so the sooner you join the sooner you can participate if required).

I've just had a look at Peter Walnes website, he has a 4x5 Arca Swiss Monorail for £95, a Copal 0 lensboard is £33 the Arca Swiss wide Angle bellows is £15

Ffordes has a Cambo SC 5x4 Monorail for £149
They have 5x Toyo DDS for £75 (in my opinion the best DDS)
Cambo No1 Lens board £25
150mm Schneider Symmar f5.6 (take off the front element and this is also a 265mm f12 lens, and the front lens alone gives about 300mm 'ish' f12 too both nice portrait lengths on 4x5) for £180

So you can get quite a useful outfit to get started for £150 for all 3 items from Peter Walnes
The Toyo DDS slides and 150 Symmar from Ffordes £255
The 90mm SA/film from me (under £100),
You can get by initially with a cheap Lupe from ebay and a Large Black T-Shirt for a focussing cloth (could also throw in one of these as I am certainly 'large').

So a little over your budget but a quality camera, with 3/4 focal lengths, 5x DDS and a Wide Angle Bellows for about £500 is not at all bad.
 
Thanks a lot Ed, let me have look at them. Need to decide if I'm really ready to let the RB go :crying:
 
steveo_mcg said:
Thanks a lot Ed, let me have look at them. Need to decide if I'm really ready to let the RB go :crying:
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It's worth considering what sort of photography you want to do before deciding on camera type. Although it is possible to carry a monorail up a mountain it's a whole lot easier with field camera.
 
It would likely be used outdoors 99% of the time, either buildings or landscapes. I'll need to do more reading I think, is it just time setting up a monorail? I gather from @Asha 's thread they're not the easiest to carry.
 
It's the weight of them, Steve. A field camera is usually made from wood with metal mechanical components. As such, some field cameras can weigh in the region of 1-1.5 KG (have a look at Ebony - Warning, they are very expensive!) usual weight for a 5x4 field camera is approximately 2-3 KG. Rail cameras tend to be all metal, with the heaviest component being the metal rail along which the front and rear standards can slide. This needs to be quite sturdy as it must not flex; if it does, fine adjustments you may have made to movements are thrown out.

They are also bulkier. A (folding) field camera will fold up quite efficiently into a box not much bigger than the thickness of base and rear standard. Indeed, you can get rails which come apart into multiple sections, so it really depends on how much space you have in your bag. I would put forward that, if you have the room, and don't mind the weight, a rail camera is just as useful for landscape etc. The one argument for rail cameras over field cameras though, is that there is no limitation on what length of long lens you use on them, as provided you can get long enough bellows, the rail can be extended by quite some way. A field camera is essentially limited by it's design. As such, specs for field cameras will pretty much always define the longest and shortest lens the body will accommodate.
 
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steveo_mcg said:
It would likely be used outdoors 99% of the time, either buildings or landscapes. I'll need to do more reading I think, is it just time setting up a monorail? I gather from @Asha 's thread they're not the easiest to carry.
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You can break them down to their constituent parts but tbh unless you've got an Ansel Adams type burro to carry all your gear you'd be better off with a field camera, I can carry my camera, 3 lenses, 6 double dark slides, loupe, tripod, focus cloth (t-shirt), and other useful bits and bobs in a Tamrac Expedition 5 backpack. Whereas the Toyo was lugged around in an old Army case
Toyo-3354 by Raglansurf, on Flickr
 
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I think the cost of the field camera (based purely on Ffordes) would kill this endeavour for the moment so the gateway drug will have to be a monorail. I don't really mind carrying weight although it might limit me to day trips rather than overnighters, don't think I'd like 5kg of camera plus my bivvy gear!

I'm currently thinking I'll get the monorail, @EdBray linked to, and a single lens on the credit card and see it goes, if I get on with it I'll sell the RB if not I'll sell the LF camera either way I shouldn't end up much out of pocket but don't have to worry about replacing the RB if things don't go well. Down the line I can always get another camera.... oh dear!
 
Its entirely practical to back pack a monorail have a look here

I have a Sinar F I could loan you for months if you like with a 90 150 and 210 lens although these are dbm mounted and require a Sinar shutter which I can loan out too fairly sure I have a spare bag bellows too.

if you do buy the Arca I'm sure it would be ine its just a whole lot easier to get accessories for Sinars.

In point of fact the lightest field camera happens to be metal and a monorail


usual weight for a 5x4 field camera is approximately 2-3 KG
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A Sinar F wieghs 3.3Kg and the latter F2 is 3.6Kg more than most woden field cameras but not vastly so and while it certainly will not fold down as small if you look at the first link I posted its easy enough to backpack.
 
cheers @abbandon but I'd feel decidedly uncomfortable using gear that expensive that belongs to someone else.

Accessories? I thought LF gear was pretty agnostic?
 
TBH it was the weight of the Toyo that pushed me towards the Nagaoka, I liked the results that I got from it when I could be bothered to lug it around but I was prepared to lose the flexibility of the monorail for the benefit of the field camera that weighs just 1.32kg, like the Toyo you have to factor in the weight of lenses and dark slides etc but I really notice the difference when I've spent the whole day out walking.

You don't have to spend a fortune to get a field camera if you buy wisely ;)
 
steveo_mcg said:
Accessories? I thought LF gear was pretty agnostic?
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As Nick said above, you'll need darkslides, loupe for focusing, dark cloth (old t shirt). As nick also said, we're assuming you have a sturdy tripod.

You'll also need a proper darkbag for film changing, though depending on how many photos you want to take, you won't necessarily need to carry this with you. You'll also want to consider a light meter (though I guess you have one for when using the RB?). If you take a digital camera with you also, you can use the built in light meter to get reading. I personally would advise against this though, especially for slide, as the meters in digital cameras are integrating meters. As such, they generate a meter reading based on the integrated average of the three colour channels. For high exposure latitude films though, this probably wont be so much of an issue.

Developing has been discussed above and, of course, depends on whether you home dev any of your film or not :)
 
Yeah I'm pretty sure my tripod will be fine and I've got a decent spot meter for the RB. Darkbag and developing gear should be okay, though I might need a bigger bag depending how fiddly loading darkslides is.


I was just slightly concerned by this:
abbandon said:
if you do buy the Arca I'm sure it would be ine its just a whole lot easier to get accessories for Sinars.
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and worrying that buying the Arca and finding stuff like lens boards or darkslides were difficult to come by vs buying a more expensive brand (Sinar above).


Every time you move up a format it gets more complicated! :D
 
I wouldn't say Arca is a less expensive brand than Sinar, just the opposite in fact, which is one of the reasons so many Sinars were sold over the Arca.

have a look at Badger Graphics for some up to date prices.
 
as far as weight goes i did a bag comparision between all my setups

D800 + 2 lenses = 2609g

Bronica 6x6 + 2 lenses + 3 film backs = 3049g

Wista 5x4 , 7 film cartriges, 2 lenses, light meter = 3597g

Its a chunky monkey. Tbh if im doing some long walks i wont take it, anything under a mile from the car and i'll use it but you really start to feel every ounce after a few miles of hills.

*edit* and you need a tripod, arguably you can get away without one for the other 2 but for LF its a necessity. So thats more weight.
 
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Pah! :). RB67, two lenses and two backs 5.2kg inc bag (500g ish) and I still need a tripod. In a proper walking pack whilst camping I'm comfortable with 8-12kg for hours on end so I'm not especially worried by weight tbh. As long as it'll go in my 40L rucksack plus it'll give an excuse to use my fabulously expensive Osprey pack.
 
well youre clearly fit and im a fat lump who gets out of breath unwrapping a mars bar :)
 
"No, Dean, don't open that thread, you don't shoot large format and you want a small camera, remember?"

"Ok, so you're reading it, great, just remember that you don't want ..."

"Oh, look, Ed's written a long post ..."

"Well fancy that, I didn't realise that LF was so comparatively reasonable to get into ..."

"... and I've plenty of large dark t-shirts so that's a saving already ..."

"Now, come on, what happened to that Leica, eh? Yeah, move along, nothing to see here, don't click those links ..."

"Right, that's it, you're on your own."


I'm my own worst enemy :rolleyes:
 
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