Pay by mile - taxing road use?

Suggest you check out Cinch as an example - used EV from 8k.

Had a Quick Look at Motorpoint and Cinch - 2021 Electric Corsa is 10.5k. Fuel Corsa of similar mileage from 2019 is 10k.

Granted, thats a small survey and not checked out the specific differences but as near as damn it the same price.

Sure, if your budget is 2k then its not a lot of use but 8k is not an unreasonable budget for many people

You keep referring to "lots of people" or "many people". Is that a case of "I'm alright jack?"

I would have loved to have seen my sons face if I had to tell him he needed £10k to buy his first car. I wonder what the insurance would be for a 17 year old in an EV with huge amounts of torque and an iPad attached to the dash?
 
Saw an advert for a new EV for £14k recently....it was a Dacia i think. I expect the usual suspects will sneer at this but a lot of people do drive Dacias even if Jeremy Clarkson wouldn't approve.

Some people will always prefer the status quo even if the changes would be beneficial in all sorts of ways.
 
Last edited:
Suggest you check out Cinch as an example - used EV from 8k.

Had a Quick Look at Motorpoint and Cinch - 2021 Electric Corsa is 10.5k. Fuel Corsa of similar mileage from 2019 is 10k.

Granted, thats a small survey and not checked out the specific differences but as near as damn it the same price.

Sure, if your budget is 2k then its not a lot of use but 8k is not an unreasonable budget for many people
This is all very well, and your point may be valid but . . .

An electric vehicle wouldn't suit me, and wouldn't meet my needs even if I was able to charge it at home, and there must be millions of others in a similar position. This may (and probably will) change in the future but we are all concerned with the known present, not with the unknown future.

(All) governments make and then break their promises and change their direction in pursuit of future votes, it's called politics:( None of them seem to breathe the same air as the rest of us and none of them seem to even understand that not everyone lives in a large city with good public transport, or that a very large percentage of the population can't spend a fortune on a car and can't use public transport.

It's obvious from the helpful data in this thread that ICE fuel sales are in decline and the the government will need to create a new form of revenue income, whether that's through road pricing, general taxation or something else, but right now nobody knows what the future holds.

This makes this type of discussion interesting, but pointless, and personally I just can't see why some people are getting emotional about it, and as a moderator I certainly can't see why some people are being rude to each other about it.
 
... and personally I just can't see why some people are getting emotional about it, and as a moderator I certainly can't see why some people are being rude to each other about it.

Those be the people that think they are saving the planet and are better than the ICE driving plebs.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Sky
You keep referring to "lots of people" or "many people". Is that a case of "I'm alright jack?"

I would have loved to have seen my sons face if I had to tell him he needed £10k to buy his first car. I wonder what the insurance would be for a 17 year old in an EV with huge amounts of torque and an iPad attached to the dash?

you keep referring to "most people... can't afford EV", you also make claims about range and charging which you know nothing about other than from an anti EV perspective. You said most people can't afford EV, hardly thing a 10k Corsa is that far out of range of most.

I made the point that someone looking for a car for 2k, EV is not going to work. But like I said, if you have 10k to spend on a corsa an EV is not more money!

To clarify, I went EV not to be green but to have a nice car with great performance. If I won the lottery, I would have an Aston Martin, a huge gas guzzling pickup, some sexy 2 seater and something like a Tesla for everyday. I am not evangelical about EV.
 
This is all very well, and your point may be valid but . . .

An electric vehicle wouldn't suit me, and wouldn't meet my needs even if I was able to charge it at home, and there must be millions of others in a similar position. This may (and probably will) change in the future but we are all concerned with the known present, not with the unknown future.

(All) governments make and then break their promises and change their direction in pursuit of future votes, it's called politics:( None of them seem to breathe the same air as the rest of us and none of them seem to even understand that not everyone lives in a large city with good public transport, or that a very large percentage of the population can't spend a fortune on a car and can't use public transport.

It's obvious from the helpful data in this thread that ICE fuel sales are in decline and the the government will need to create a new form of revenue income, whether that's through road pricing, general taxation or something else, but right now nobody knows what the future holds.

This makes this type of discussion interesting, but pointless, and personally I just can't see why some people are getting emotional about it, and as a moderator I certainly can't see why some people are being rude to each other about it.

I have never said that it would suit everyone. Towing a caravan, live in flats, do 60k a year, I would not get an EV either. Or if I loved the smell of petrol!

What annoys me is when arguments are made with no facts (like they will catch fire, spend ages waiting for them to charge, range is rubbish etc).
 
I love(d) the smell of proper, old fashioned 4 Star but super unleaded isn't the same. Let alone the fact that the Benzene in unleaded is a really nasty carcinogen.

Mrs Nod is chopping her Leaf in for another Jag soon - an iPace!
 
you keep referring to "most people... can't afford EV", you also make claims about range and charging which you know nothing about other than from an anti EV perspective. You said most people can't afford EV, hardly thing a 10k Corsa is that far out of range of most.

Okay, Most, many a lot of people can't afford them and just because I don't have an EV doesn't mean I know nothing about limited range, range anxiety or charging issues. Most of that is common knowledge.

I made the point that someone looking for a car for 2k, EV is not going to work. But like I said, if you have 10k to spend on a corsa an EV is not more money!

and my point is that when new ICE cars are no longer sold and £2k cars no longer exist because the demand for used ICE cars has shot up and prices have tripled, how do people who want/need a cheap car get to buy one? For me and for Gary, even if we had £10k we still wouldn't buy an EV. I wouldn't buy one if they were £2k.


To clarify, I went EV not to be green but to have a nice car with great performance. If I won the lottery, I would have an Aston Martin, a huge gas guzzling pickup, some sexy 2 seater and something like a Tesla for everyday. I am not evangelical about EV.

I get that, I'm not suggesting that you are one of the people who believe they are saving the planet by owning an EV (they know who they are). You really can drive what you like and if an EV is good for you then go for it. But I will continue to argue the case against them being forced on us because we do seem to be in agreement that they are not and never will be suitable for everyone.

What annoys me is when arguments are made with no facts (like they will catch fire, spend ages waiting for them to charge, range is rubbish etc).

Thing is, they can catch fire, have caught fire and is far more ferocious than a normal car fire.

Until I can charge an EV in the time it takes me to fill my 90 litre tank then charging time is too long. Maybe not for you, but it's an issue for me. The charge at home argument is invalid if you want to go any further than Tesco.

Until your EV can go for 700 miles on a charge the range is rubbish. Maybe not for you, but it's an issue for me.
 
Last edited:
Okay, Most, many a lot of people can't afford them and just because I don't have an EV doesn't mean I know nothing about limited range, range anxiety or charging issues. Most of that is common knowledge.



and my point is that when new ICE cars are no longer sold and £2k cars no longer exist because the demand for used ICE cars has shot up and prices have tripled, how do people who want/need a cheap car get to buy one? For me and for Gary, even if we had £10k we still wouldn't buy an EV. I wouldn't buy one if they were £2k.




I get that, I'm not suggesting that you are one of the people who believe they are saving the planet by owning an EV (they know who they are). You really can drive what you like and if an EV is good for you then go for it. But I will continue to argue the case against them being forced on us because we do seem to be in agreement that they are not and never will be suitable for everyone.



Thing is, they can catch fire, have caught fire and is far more ferocious than a normal car fire.

Until I can charge an EV in the time it takes me to fill my 90 litre tank then charging time is too long. Maybe not for you, but it's an issue for me. The charge at home argument is invalid if you want to go any further than Tesco.

Until your EV can go for 700 miles on a charge the range is rubbish. Maybe not for you, but it's an issue for me.

Fine in your case but again, you do not understand how EVs work. Like your comment about going further than Tesco

12k in a year, and I have never waited for it to charge. It charges overnight or when I am taking a pee and getting food on a long trip. Other than that I top up at home, so for the vast majority of people looking at range, it is fine. If I was to add up the time I have waited for the car to charge (once or twice) and the time I have saved filling up, I have gained time!
 
Fine in your case but again, you do not understand how EVs work. Like your comment about going further than Tesco

12k in a year, and I have never waited for it to charge. It charges overnight or when I am taking a pee and getting food on a long trip. Other than that I top up at home, so for the vast majority of people looking at range, it is fine. If I was to add up the time I have waited for the car to charge (once or twice) and the time I have saved filling up, I have gained time!


It's no use. Some people's minds are closed.
 
Registered cars report their mileage once a year at the time of the MOT. This would probably deal with the bulk of the cars on the road, but would be a challenge for car ownership transfers in year. Possibly charge for mileage monthly, based on the previous year's usage, instead of a once a year payment. Fraught with problems.

ANPR has to be a non starter, other than to pick up vehicles that are not registered for MOT. There are over 250,000 miles of roads in the UK, and no way of covering them all with ANPR.

I've never been to New Zealand, but my understanding is that they have "Road User Charges" (RUC). Petrol has duty included in pump-price, so no RUC required, but Diesel has no tax (I think) and there is a reduced rate for PHEV to take into account that "some" of the miles will be assumed to be petrol, and a rate for electric, gas, etc. and vehicles that impact the road, but don't have any propulsion (trailers etc)

You pre-pay for an RUC Licence per 1,000 km, if I have done my sums right its 6p / mile for a regular car. Seems to be a long list of vehicle "types" - heavier cars pay more, HGV trailer need a RUC too for the miles they cover (no idea how that is monitored), such vehicles would use more fuel, so I suppose the RUC balances out with fuel duty equivalent.

I think if this is not paid then there is a settlement to pay at MOT equivalent (Warranty of Fitness test), although I think if you get stopped by police and don't have enough pre-paid RUC there is a fine ... so maybe a fine for retrospective pay at MOT (but I'm guessing). Odometer reading required when you buy more RUC licences, so presume that all tots up to what the odometer reading will be when RUC will run out.

Seems reasonably doable to me. Doesn't need any roadside logging equipment, just self-declaration which I already do in having a licence, getting insurance, an MOT if the car is old enough, retrospective payment of DART crossing ... and so on. So maybe just "different" rather than "difficult to manage"
 
£10k for a car....?

I've spent less than £6k total in all my years of driving :)

I don't know good much it is going to cost me yet, but I am getting my stepdads Ford Focus soon as he has to give up driving. Its 6 months newer than mine :) :ROFLMAO:
 
FWIW I've been driving EV since 2015. Back then I was doing 35K miles a year (and whilst infrastructure may not be great now, it certainly wasn't then!)

I can charge at home. If I didn't ... I doubt I would have been in a hurry to get one.

But I will continue to argue the case against them being forced on us because we do seem to be in agreement that they are not and never will be suitable for everyone.

I agree not suitable for everyone. I think that's a small number. Norway (special case, but representative of "what's possible") is close to 100% new cars sold EV, and 50% of all cars on the road are now EV. They have a number of sweet spots - copious hydro electric, massive sovereign wealth fund from oil which facilitated "no VAT on new EV purchase" initial incentives (since rolled back as numbers grew). And, no one (huge sweeping statement!) in Norway wants a 2nd hand ICE, but they can sell them to "anywhere in EU", and Norway currency is low just now, so living in neighbouring country and buying your 2nd hand ICE from Norway would be a good deal. Thus more Norwegians are incentivised to buy new, and second hand, EVs. Forecourt Petrol pumps being replaced with EV chargers as demand for Petrol falls ... so they are getting to the point where ICE drivers have to pre-plan where they are going to fill up!!

Apart from their hydro power benefit, they seems to have done a good job of exploiting their first-mover advantage :)

I think we could see a significant take up similarly, and that will bring with it a fall in price of 2nd diesels and increased price of Petrol/Diesel maybe? if not that then harder to find places selling it. I know supermarkets like to make money ... but what if they wake up one morning and say "Its starting to look really bad selling fossil fuels, get rid of all the pumps"

Thing is, they can catch fire, have caught fire and is far more ferocious than a normal car fire.

Statistics I have seen say they catch fire less than ICE cars. I'm not sure if that statistic is level-playing field, for example almost all EV are brand new, plenty of ICE are really really old. They don't catch fire quickly (so ability to escape a car that catches fire is better than having a tank of petrol finding a way to catch fire), but they are a nightmare to put out and burn very hot for a very long time (emerging tech for firefighters to address that, I expect). Luton airport car park fire was made worse by ICE fuel (I can't remember if diesel or petrol) escaping, running into all the drains / downpipes and then catching fire. That spread is a snag for ICE fires ... but getting INTO a multi-storey and NEAR an EV to put out a fire in an enclosed space is a challenge.

I think some good / some bad for both. Either of them catching fire in your attached garage in the middle of the night is probably a similarly bad outcome.

Until I can charge an EV in the time it takes me to fill my 90 litre tank then charging time is too long.

If you don't have off road parking / charging then, yeah. If you do .. .then I don't agree, although my wife does!

Back in 2015 I was out-of-range and charging 2x a month. 20 minutes at a time. I'm sitting there with my wife who says "This is annoying"

So me, smart arse, says "30,000 miles ICE fill ups were 5 - 10 minutes ... that's 8 hours a year. 20 minute charge, 2x a month, that's 8 hours a year"

My wife, predictably, says "That's not the same".

Actually, my view would be that if you can use that time it is very different. ICE = stand-and-pump and (most people, or so it seems to me, stand-and-queue-to-pay).

EV = plug in an do something else. Me: I did emails, that I would otherwise have to do when I got home. So for me that was just a time shift and cost me no time.

Since then I have replaced that 250 mile real world range EV with a 300 mile range, and now my away from home fill ups have dropped to one or two days a year, because almost all my journeys in UK don't exceed 300 miles, and increasingly friends I stay with have car chargers I can use if I stay for a weekend, or even a few hours.

We have driven to Alps ski resort for decades, its 12-ish hours door-to-door. ICE probably had range of 600 miles, we would drive 2 - 3 hours, stop in a layby, swap drivers, carry on. We were young .. we arrived knackered.

Now with EV we stop for lunch (same as we did before) and the car fills 10% - 100%, and we make 3 additional 20 minute stops. We get out, stretch our legs, have a pee and a coffee. It takes an extra hour to get there, we are now well into retirement age and yet we arrive fresh as a daisy. I greatly regret the "press on, don't stop" attitude we had when younger.

Range anxiety: that's mostly a newbie issue. I'm a nerd, so some planning before a trip doesn't bother me, but the SatNav will tell me, very accurately (I've done 200K miles in EV, never got caught out, so I am now confident in the car's prediction), what my arrival %age will be, and if I need to stop it will navigate to suitable locations and so on. Its definitely different. Its definitely not hard, unless change-resistant, but I understand why a newbie would be concerned.

Just my 2p-worth
 
Administratively there is a simpler way if the objective is to maintain tax revenue from motorists; the VED rates could be adjusted with increases for ICE and lower rates for EV's. This avoids the issue of costly implementation of a pay per mile. However whether this would be acceptable politically is another matter
 
Administratively there is a simpler way if the objective is to maintain tax revenue from motorists; the VED rates could be adjusted with increases for ICE and lower rates for EV's.
I think the 90%+ of motorists still using petrol cars would prefer that to read decreases for ICE and increases for EVs.
 
Administratively there is a simpler way if the objective is to maintain tax revenue from motorists; the VED rates could be adjusted with increases for ICE and lower rates for EV's. This avoids the issue of costly implementation of a pay per mile. However whether this would be acceptable politically is another matter

If you take into account fuel tax, the ICE drivers are already paying the Government tax revenue amounts relevant to their mileage.... ;)
 
Back
Top