Police and photographer clash, yet again.

welly said:
My point is (again):

1. I chose to get a passport and a driving license. I chose to offer up this information. I wasn't FORCED into giving up my personal data.

2. I could give up my driving license and move house, and not renew my passport whenever I choose. The data held by the passport agency and the DVLA would eventually be out of date.

3. When the ID cards come into full effect, I will have absolutely no choice. It's an important difference.

It's a matter of rights, freedoms and choice. I don't have to get a passport and don't have to get a driving license. I WILL have to get an ID card.
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So the only piece of data that will change when that information is out of ate is you address. So I repeat, are you scared of the government knowing your home address. Oh, and just a small point, if you pay tax, the government will always have your home address! ;)
 
welly said:
We're going round in circles here. Because I will be FORCED to get an ID card.
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That's not an invasion of privacy though.

You 'have' to get a National Insurance number. Is that an invasion of privacy too?

You 'have' to have a birth certificate. How about that one?

Just becuase you dislike the fact that you will need to get an ID card does not make it an invasion of privacy. If it bothered you that much, why did you get a passport?
 
Eric Mc said:
The person was stopped because he was taking photos of a footpath! If you know of any other way of doing that without using a camera of some sort perhaps you'd care to enlighten us:shrug: If he had just been walking the footpath he wouldn't have drawn the attention of the police.....hence the camera is what made him act "Suspiciously" in their eyes. I'll rephrase my question a little for you shall I?

Are you saying that anyone who is in a public place should be seen as acting suspiciously by the police..and thus stopped and searched under the terrorism act?
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Was he stopped because he was taking photos of a footpath, or was he stopped because he was acting suspiciously whilst in the process of taking photos of a footpath? You see the subtle difference...eh, eh? ;)
 
ID cards are not there jsut to stop terrorists. how about migrant workers etc.. Or do you beleive that migrant workers (illegal workers) should get someones job, should be able claim benefits when they shouldnt be.

Welly, its not a case of stopping everyone and checking their cards. Its a case of you looked like you were donig something dodgy, and then being requested to provide ID.
 
fabs said:
So the only piece of data that will change when that information is out of ate is you address. So I repeat, are you scared of the government knowing your home address. Oh, and just a small point, if you pay tax, the government will always have your home address! ;)
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All the information held on ID cards will be centralised and used in ways that we have no control over. I know (probably) that I'm not the target of government profiling. That's not the point. I don't believe that it is any of the government's business knowing where I am, what I'm doing, which bank I'm with, what I spend my money on, which countries I fly to and so on. They work for us, not the other way round.
 
welly said:
All the information held on ID cards will be centralised and used in ways that we have no control over. I know (probably) that I'm not the target of government profiling. That's not the point. I don't believe that it is any of the government's business knowing where I am, what I'm doing, which bank I'm with, what I spend my money on, which countries I fly to and so on. They work for us, not the other way round.
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So the government will know which bank you are with because you have an ID card then? How does that work exactly?
 
fabs said:
Was he stopped because he was taking photos of a footpath, or was he stopped because he was acting suspiciously whilst in the process of taking photos of a footpath? You see the subtle difference...eh, eh? ;)
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Oh yes I can spot the difference a mile off...........which is why(from the standard of some of the policing in this country at the moment) I probably wouldn't make a very good police officer!
 
welly said:
We're going round in circles here. Because I will be FORCED to get an ID card.
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You are FORCED to have a birth and death certificate (although the latter won't matter to you personally). Which would contain not information on you but also on your parents :razz: now we're invading their privacy aswell, maybe an ID card only affecting you isn't such a bad thing.

You are essentially forced to have a bank account, unless you manage to find an employer who still pays cash.

To have a job you need an NI number which I believe you are forced to have once you turn 16
 
I have taken pictures in a Train station whilst i had police all around me (football match reasons). i wasnt asked what i was doing because they knew i was taking pictures of the commotion happening.

How do you know that he was not taking pictures for a get away route or a safe route with limited surveliance (sp).
 
Simmotino said:
That's not an invasion of privacy though.

You 'have' to get a National Insurance number. Is that an invasion of privacy too?

You 'have' to have a birth certificate. How about that one?

Just becuase you dislike the fact that you will need to get an ID card does not make it an invasion of privacy. If it bothered you that much, why did you get a passport?
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It IS an invasion of privacy and if you can't see that then you need to do some more reading.

Birth certificate - I had no choice, I was only just there at the time. National insurance number - again, I had no choice but that's only used by one government department. The data protection act will hopefully look after any information attached to that.

I got a passport because I wanted to go overseas. And, to repeat myself yet again, I chose to surrender my personal information to get a passport. It wasn't a requirement of the government that I HAD to get a passport.
 
and a forced id card system can be checked instantly that you do exist, it will make it easier to identify it is you and not some immigrant who happened to memorise your address and name etc...
if you have ever watched the police stop programs on telly, you will notice a few people give false names etc to avoid telling officers that they dont have a license etc... if everyone had to have an id card and carry it round, then this would reduce the hour long roadside discussion to about 10 minutes as they would probably be arrested if they didnt provide the card when asked(i dont think you have to carry drivers license with you at all times while driving).

with it, will come new law stating you have to show your id card to a police officer if requested, but purely so they can do there job better. i dont understand why your so objective to things designed to stop errors.

i dont think they will be able to use the information for anything other than id cards:shrug:
 
welly said:
All the information held on ID cards will be centralised and used in ways that we have no control over. I know (probably) that I'm not the target of government profiling. That's not the point. I don't believe that it is any of the government's business knowing where I am, what I'm doing, which bank I'm with, what I spend my money on, which countries I fly to and so on. They work for us, not the other way round.
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How do you think the information will be used and what has that got to do with ID cards? They won't tell anyone what countries you've been to, who you bank with and what you spend your money on.
 
I think this subject is done to death for me. I'm saying nothing more but suffice to say, if you guys want to carry on offering up your personal information and giving up more privacy and freedom then by all means do. I'm having none of it!
 
welly said:
It IS an invasion of privacy and if you can't see that then you need to do some more reading.

Birth certificate - I had no choice, I was only just there at the time. National insurance number - again, I had no choice but that's only used by one government department. The data protection act will hopefully look after any information attached to that.

I got a passport because I wanted to go overseas. And, to repeat myself yet again, I chose to surrender my personal information to get a passport. It wasn't a requirement of the government that I HAD to get a passport.
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Dear oh dear. The ID card will provide no further information to the government than that which you are willingly surrendering to them already, so there is no 'privacy' there at all anyway.

You are basing the whole 'invasion' argument on your own belief that they will be monitoring your every move on a little 12 inch monitor when you go anywhere with your ID card.

That's not an invasion of privacy, that's paranoia!
 
let us all let it rest and go away with our own opinions. let this thread be closed!
 
welly said:
I think this subject is done to death for me. I'm saying nothing more but suffice to say, if you guys want to carry on offering up your personal information and giving up more privacy and freedom then by all means do. I'm having none of it!
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Says the man that already has, willingly! :cautious::LOL:
 
Eric Mc said:
Oh yes I can spot the difference a mile off...........which is why(from the standard of some of the policing in this country at the moment) I probably wouldn't make a very good police officer!
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Don't really understand the relevance of that remark to this discussion unless you are making a direct accusation at the police officer involved the the OP. In which case I hope you have some proof of wrong doing.

welly said:
It IS an invasion of privacy and if you can't see that then you need to do some more reading.

Birth certificate - I had no choice, I was only just there at the time. National insurance number - again, I had no choice but that's only used by one government department. The data protection act will hopefully look after any information attached to that.

I got a passport because I wanted to go overseas. And, to repeat myself yet again, I chose to surrender my personal information to get a passport. It wasn't a requirement of the government that I HAD to get a passport.
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I think you'll find that the Data Protection act covers all data held by the government (and other organisations for that matter), so If you happy about your National Insurance details being safe under the DPA, you shouldn't have a problem with data for your ID card being held. There, glad we got that one sorted out. :D
 
Can we have a new forum section, one covering tin foil hats.... then we can answer some of these pressing issues like which brand of tin foil is best and how you stop it slipping down over your eyes....

tin_foil_hat2.gif
 
I hate to bearer of bad news Welly but in this country we don't actually have rights as such. That's America where they have a constitution. We have laws.

Laws stop you doing bad things rather than rights which tell you what you can do.

In this case the guy was stopped and searched near a train station because the officer thought he should check him out. Simple really. Better safe than sorry.

Any time I've been togging near a train station I've actually gone and got hold of the nearest BTP (British Transport Police) officer and let them know who I am and what I'm doing. Saves them the hassle then, no paperwork required, everybody happy.
 
AliB said:
I hate to bearer of bad news Welly but in this country we don't actually have rights as such. That's America where they have a constitution. We have laws.

Laws stop you doing bad things rather than rights which tell you what you can do.

In this case the guy was stopped and searched near a train station because the officer thought he should check him out. Simple really. Better safe than sorry.

Any time I've been togging near a train station I've actually gone and got hold of the nearest BTP (British Transport Police) officer and let them know who I am and what I'm doing. Saves them the hassle then, no paperwork required, everybody happy.
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Ali if everyone was as forward thinking as you it would be a better place for all.
 
fabs said:
Don't really understand the relevance of that remark to this discussion unless you are making a direct accusation at the police officer involved the the OP. In which case I hope you have some proof of wrong doing.
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You asked if I could see the difference.....I stated that I could! Was that really hard for you to understand:eek: As to the rest of my post.....please don't read between the lines, I don't tend to write anything there!
 
Simmotino said:
I want the one with the little foil pocket on the inside so that I can keep my ID card in there.

That should stop them being able to track me! :LOL::wacky:
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:LOL:
 
Eric Mc said:
You asked if I could see the difference.....I stated that I could! Was that really hard for you to understand:eek: As to the rest of my post.....please don't read between the lines, I don't tend to write anything there!
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Didn't read between the lines. I was commenting directly on you generalised remark about the police. Don't see how you found that hard to understand.
 
fabs said:
Didn't read between the lines. I was commenting directly on you generalised remark about the police. Don't see how you found that hard to understand.
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Ah...you call this commenting on a "generalised" remark do you?

fabs said:
unless you are making a direct accusation at the police officer involved the the OP. In which case I hope you have some proof of wrong doing.
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Perhaps it's you that needs to read your posts more carefully!
 
Eric Mc said:
Ah...you call this commenting on a "generalised" remark do you?

Originally Posted by fabs
unless you are making a direct accusation at the police officer involved the the OP. In which case I hope you have some proof of wrong doing.
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Perhaps it's you that needs to read your posts more carefully!
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If you are going to quote me, then at least quote the whole of my post as I was stating that I didn't understand the relevance of your post which was making a generalising statement about police officers. The part you quoted is relevant if you weren't generalising. So now we've got that established, what's your point?
 
welly said:
I think this subject is done to death for me. I'm saying nothing more but suffice to say, if you guys want to carry on offering up your personal information and giving up more privacy and freedom then by all means do. I'm having none of it!
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Short of dying or leaving the country before hand you will have too.
You don't volunteer your information to get a passport or driving license you have to give it.
Unless you are planning on illegal activities, there is no harm in having an ID.
You're already a statistic, NI number, electoral role, income tax etc. It's just a case of having the ID in one place no more no less.
From your resilience to being asked for your ID, I can only assume you have something to hide. I've been stopped by the police several times whilst driving, some were to check if I was the owner of the car, once I was speeding, I was let off with a caution, another time when I was 19 driving with 3 other people in the car of similar age. They've asked for my details, I've had 7 day wonders for the stuff I couldn't produce at the time. Apart from the speeding occasion, I could claim I was being harrassed, but I didn't feel harrassed nor inconvenienced. The police have a job to do and to be honest being someone not fully into photography as others on here, I can see why people taking pictures of a foot path or a pub sign would be seen as being odd. Not everyone is a photographer or thinks like a photographer.

The only thing I find offensive about having an ID is the fact I will have to pay for a bit of plastic which contains info they already have.
 
fabs said:
If you are going to quote me, then at least quote the whole of my post as I was stating that I didn't understand the relevance of your post which was making a generalising statement about police officers. The part you quoted is relevant if you weren't generalising. So now we've got that established, what's your point?
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I've quoted your whole post and I've underlined the relevant part so that even you can spot it!

The standard of some (not all...before you misread that too) of the policing in this country at the moment is laughable at best. There is little or no respect given to the police by some sections of the general public.....which leads to most getting tared with the same brush in the eyes of the force. Respect however has to be earned and this will never be achieved while some(don't misread that either) treat the warrant card that they carry as an "I can do just as I please" card.
 
Suvv said:
Taking a picture of a pub sign the other day and the publican came out and asked what I was doing!
Getting as bad as the police, although he did not search me.
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So would it be worth trying to find a brothel then?
 
You seem to have difficulty spotting the relevant part of posts...I thought I'd make it easy for you;)
 
fabs said:
And you appear to have difficulty comprehending mine, but I really don't want to dumb down!
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Would you care to explain the underlined part of that statement?
 
nilagin said:
Short of dying or leaving the country before hand you will have too.
You don't volunteer your information to get a passport or driving license you have to give it.
Unless you are planning on illegal activities, there is no harm in having an ID.
You're already a statistic, NI number, electoral role, income tax etc. It's just a case of having the ID in one place no more no less.
From your resilience to being asked for your ID, I can only assume you have something to hide. I've been stopped by the police several times whilst driving, some were to check if I was the owner of the car, once I was speeding, I was let off with a caution, another time when I was 19 driving with 3 other people in the car of similar age. They've asked for my details, I've had 7 day wonders for the stuff I couldn't produce at the time. Apart from the speeding occasion, I could claim I was being harrassed, but I didn't feel harrassed nor inconvenienced. The police have a job to do and to be honest being someone not fully into photography as others on here, I can see why people taking pictures of a foot path or a pub sign would be seen as being odd. Not everyone is a photographer or thinks like a photographer.

The only thing I find offensive about having an ID is the fact I will have to pay for a bit of plastic which contains info they already have.
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No, I don't have anything to hide. That is not the point. What I do, where I am and who I am is nothing to do with the government. That's the point. And given the government's (not just the current, but the last one too) history on keeping private and personal information secure, I simply don't trust them. That's what it comes down to. I don't trust the government. The less information they have about me, the better. I know they have information about me, no one has to tell me that. But the less they have, the better. It's not about what they might do with it, it's what they can do with it. They're just not to be trusted as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, that's definitely all I'm saying about the matter.
 
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