Sheep etc.

[Ed Sutton]

As I said, a busy day with three sale rings on the go. The main one where I hung out had the best visibility for photography of all the marts I've been to so far. Although it wasn't packed with people, which helped.

Is the slow shutter thing a gimmick, or does it add anything to the narrative?





Compared to...





At ringside I was able to get some in-close pictures. Which could be much better if there had been a moment that was decisive.

 

[moggi1964]

Love the movement shots especially.

 

[Ed Sutton]

Love the movement shots especially.

Thanks. They're interesting and fun to take, but you have to take lots to get any that 'work'. It's very hit and miss.

 

[Ed Sutton]

It's looking like the sheep shed at the end of the lane is soon to be a reality.

The corrugated tin hut thing that was there for years had a rustic charm. Here it is in 2020.



The first development was the concreting of the hard standing a couple of years ago.

Now the hut is gone and hardcore has been delivered and spread this week. It's going to be a big shed and the view will be gone.

 

[Ed Sutton]

The autumn sheep sales are well under way now. Another 'Horned and Hill Going' sale today. This time at Clitheroe with it's wild mix of lighting.



I had a brief obsession with photographing people unloading their sheep, using the gates and trailers as framing devices.





I like the way the brothers were both standing similarly.



Until Eddie spotted me.



Another of my in close 'messy' shots.



I keep on reading The Online Photographer but as the years go by find it increasingly irritating. Recently MJ said of documentary that it's more about "what the photograph shows than ...the photograph in and of itself." I see this attitude a fair bit and it really p***es me off the way it implies that documentary pictures don't have, or don't need, any aesthetic or formal thought behind them. It's certainly not true of the documentary photographs I look at and aspire to make. End of minor rant!

Maybe more pics later.

 

[sphexx]

I keep on reading The Online Photographer but as the years go by find it increasingly irritating. Recently MJ said of documentary that it's more about "what the photograph shows than ...the photograph in and of itself."

Yes I see your occasional pithy comments ㋡. I guess if I were to defend his statement then I would say it’s probably true wherever documentary photos are published if they are news but otherwise not at all true.

Maybe you should write a longer criticism and offer it to him as a guest post!

 

[Ed Sutton]

Yes I see your occasional pithy comments ㋡.

Pithy?

I guess if I were to defend his statement then I would say it’s probably true wherever documentary photos are published if they are news but otherwise not at all true.

Therein lies the subtle difference between 'news' photography, 'photojournalism' and 'long form documentary' photography. There is also the genre of 'art documentary' photography which is probably best left in it's own narrow enclave. Despite the fact the primary driver is to 'get the shot' of whatever happens to be newsworthy great pictures are still made within the news sphere. That's the nature of the medium. e.g. - monkey selfie!

I like what Tom Wood said in What Do Artists Do All Day?: "When the stuff is too journalistic and documentary then it is journalism, if it is too conceptual and arty then that is another thing, but where the two meet - that is interesting."

Maybe you should write a longer criticism and offer it to him as a guest post!

I keep starting a blog post/essay on the subject but struggle to make it clear what's in my head.

I think a lot of the snobbery from the art side of photography is down to an inability to understand that photography really is a medium in which enough apes with cameras for long enough could make a picture as good as an Ansel Adams or and Edward Weston. Or perhaps a Martin Parr or Nan Goldin. It's the same with people who can't accept that a happy accident can be a great photograph. (As I read on TP the other day). Or that taking a long burst of frames to pick out the best one is 'cheating'. These are inherent properties of photography. The way casual snapshots were framed influenced Degas and Manet. Artists embrace chance. I risk waffling at this point so I'll stop.

I took up photography to make pictures. As in arranging shapes and tones of the real world within the frame. The limitations of being stuck with things as they are is what keeps me interested about making pictures with a camera. For me that came first. The drive to record events, places and people came much later. But I am always trying to make pictures that have something about their formal structure which looks inevitable. If that makes sense.

 

[sphexx]

Pithy?


Therein lies the subtle difference between 'news' photography, 'photojournalism' and 'long form documentary' photography. There is also the genre of 'art documentary' photography which is probably best left in it's own narrow enclave. Despite the fact the primary driver is to 'get the shot' of whatever happens to be newsworthy great pictures are still made within the news sphere. That's the nature of the medium. e.g. - monkey selfie!

I like what Tom Wood said in What Do Artists Do All Day?: "When the stuff is too journalistic and documentary then it is journalism, if it is too conceptual and arty then that is another thing, but where the two meet - that is interesting."




I keep starting a blog post/essay on the subject but struggle to make it clear what's in my head.

I think a lot of the snobbery from the art side of photography is down to an inability to understand that photography really is a medium in which enough apes with cameras for long enough could make a picture as good as an Ansel Adams or and Edward Weston. Or perhaps a Martin Parr or Nan Goldin. It's the same with people who can't accept that a happy accident can be a great photograph. (As I read on TP the other day). Or that taking a long burst of frames to pick out the best one is 'cheating'. These are inherent properties of photography. The way casual snapshots were framed influenced Degas and Manet. Artists embrace chance. I risk waffling at this point so I'll stop.

I took up photography to make pictures. As in arranging shapes and tones of the real world within the frame. The limitations of being stuck with things as they are is what keeps me interested about making pictures with a camera. For me that came first. The drive to record events, places and people came much later. But I am always trying to make pictures that have something about their formal structure which looks inevitable. If that makes sense.

Yes, all definitions are problematic once one starts picking at them as is often exhibited here on TP. Even your “monkey selfie” falls down under current (unless they’ve changed it again) taxononomic rules since all monkey, apes and humans are classified as “monkeys” and thus nearly all selfies are monkey selfies except any taken by elephants etc.

 

[Ed Sutton]

"Ground floor, perfumery, stationery and leather goods..."



Eyeing up the stock.



Off to the judging pens.



Everyone's a photographer nowadays.



1st prize pen of ten Lonks enters the sale ring.



I usually use my wide angle lens round the ring but I'd left it in the car and the start of the sale took me, and a few others, by surprise so I was restricted to 35mm as my widest option at first. While I couldn't 'get it all in' it didn't seem to stop me getting a few decent shots. In fact I suspect it might have cut out a lot of rubbish ones. My biggest handicap was where I was restricted to shoot from. The only gap round the ring when I got there. One which didn't offer much access for my lens at low level. This one I took by shuffling a bit to my left!

 

[Ed Sutton]

Sheep pictures tomorrow. In the meantime, the only vehicle on the field with two-wheel drive...

 

[Ed Sutton]

The main Lonk show is still to come, followed by the associated tup sale. I might do some forward planning and draw up a shot list to put a picture story together. If I can remember...

As could have been predicted, that idea didn't come to fruition...

The more I've looked into the history of this show and its antecedents the more doubts I have about some claims made for its origins. Sheep have certainly been shown, and previously sold, in Holme Chapel for a long time. Quite how long is another matter. It's certainly a lot longer than the 40 years one dog walker has lived in the village without knowing about the show! The Ram Inn is under new management, so it's fingers crossed that they will allow the show to continue on their land in future.

I tried to get some pictures to illustrate the location this year. It's not the easiest thing to do and make it obvious there's a sheep show going on. Possibly would work better as a set of pictures laid out in a book.



I should have retaken this later when there were more trailers parked up.



A pity the sheep aren't visible in this one. A drone could be the answer!







The field was a bit damp at the start of the day. After the post-lunch rain it was very damp.



To be continued....

 

[Ed Sutton]

I took a lot of shots which MJ would say are all about the subject. Which they are. I took them as Facebook fodder, (almost) casual records of the day. What follow are pictures which are records of the subjects but which I'll put in my project file. I tried to make them be about picture making too, about how photographs work. If you want to read them that way.













More...

 

[Ed Sutton]

Last lot. Another reason for taking photographs that are less than about picture making or trying to be art, is to serve as illustration or comment

Without captions this pair of pictures are meaningless to the uninformed. Lonk ewe lambs have their tails docked but tup lambs do not. Even here I aimed for as much symetricallity as I could. Which I guess is an aesthetic choice. Selection of how to frame subjects is, to my mind, one of the most important aspects of taking photographs.





Timing is another.



Minor consideration to framing (this one is cropped slightly) in having two people of different ages doing the same thing., but it's mostly about 21st century communication.



Enough wittering.

Time for home.



Oh yeah. The Champion, for the third year running, was Tracy Pickard's tup.

 

[Ed Sutton]

Some new technology is really beneficial for me. Liveview shooting that works on a flip down screen for example. It saves my aged knees and makes getting different angles easier, or even possible. Silent shooting in liveview can be a help too for being unobtrusive. Although I think that is overplayed. It's biggest drawback for me is that I press the shutter release and don't realise when shots are being taken. (A couple of times I've thought the camera wasn't working because I couldn't hear the shutter...) This sees me end up with dozens of near identical pictures to cull.My deliberate bursts are rarely more than five frames!

 

[Ed Sutton]

Every day's a schoolday. In other words I messed up a load of photos today and have (I hope) sussed out why. The flicker reduction feature on my cameras has worked well for me under artificial lights. The dark horizontal bars some lights cause in photos are a thing of the past. Until today, when they came back. But only on some photos taken with the same camera and lens in the same location. Bafflement ensued when I noticed the effect when it was too late - back home. It was when I realised the affected frames were ones I'd shot with using liveview. At last year's sale it hadn't been a problem, but sometime this summer I changed to silent shooting in liveview. I've now reverted to noisy shooting!

I don't think the bars are too noticeable. It's when scrolling through shots that they stand out as they appear to move up or down the frames. I reckon I'll noboy will notice on Facebook!

Last week's champion Lonk was top sheep again at the pre-sale show and went on to make a record price for an aged tup of 6500 guineas. More stripey and unstripey pics tomorrow.

 

[Ed Sutton]

I don't know what was going on yesterday. Probably I was trying to be too 'clever' or experimental but I ended up with loads of rubbish and a fair percentage of badly exposed and mis-focused shots. Another lesson learned is that I'm turning face/eye detection off. The number of shots with sharp people in the background and the main subject blurred was unacceptable!

A 'will do for now' shot of a lot number being tied to a tup.



With 28 entries in the shearling tup class it was impossible to get them all in one frame - the only place it might have been done for was impossible to get at owing to a pile of junk being in the way. Holding the show in the shed where they keep the junk lots for their on-line byegones auctions also makes for cluttered backgrounds from some angles.



Another bugbear is that the sheep always face the wall when shown, which puts them in the shade with a bright background making front on shots tricky to meter for. This lead me to ending up with a stack of shots with well underexposed shadows to avoid blowing the highlights..

As the other week I struggled to get an angler during the sale. Since they put banners around the ring almost everywhere the camera has to be at eye level. This was taken from one of the two spots where a lower angle can be got. It's also where people enter and lave the ring so that's another problem to contend with!



I would have like the child's nose to be visible. So another near miss...



While all the world seems to crave shallow depth of field I often find my self wanting more.



Loading the tup purchases. They'll be going to work in a few weeks. Some good things about this shot but slightly more bad ones.



Maybe a few more thoughts and snaps later.

 

[Ed Sutton]

It's a funny old world. For a time I got a free lunch for taking the photos of prize winners at the mart. Now I can't get a decent position for the staff member with their phone! Doesn't bother me at all as those are the pictures that interest me least. It is a sign of the times though.

I am trying to broaden my choice of subject matter. I'm a naturally timid snapper of 'candid' people shots, and I don't like those which have been taken from afar with long lenses as a general rule. Since getting to know a lot more of the Lonk crowd and knowing how much they appreciate, even look forward to, my photos on FB I'm getting a little bolder. The flippy screen helps, but I'm using it less.

This is just a snap but the mart café is somewhere I'll be shooting more in future. The walls are a bit bare. I wonder if they'd like some sheep photos?



A family day out. Selling and purchasing.









I still keep an eye open for details. Again I would have like more in focus!



My next daunting task is to try to put together a zine of Lonk show photos from this summer. It's hard enough whittling down a day's harvest for here and elsewhere.. There's the added conundrum of deciding which audience to aim the selection at. Crowd pleasers. Art. Or story telling. There's only about 500 I've flagged up as useful!

 

[sphexx]

My next daunting task is to try to put together a zine of Lonk show photos from this summer. It's hard enough whittling down a day's harvest for here and elsewhere.. There's the added conundrum of deciding which audience to aim the selection at. Crowd pleasers. Art. Or story telling

This is a nightmare. I used to belong to a dog breed club that sold stuff with photos of the breed on but you couldn't use any UK dog as people wouldn’t buy it because they hated the owner or the dog or whatever … so it had to be an overseas dog. What they do now that people come from all over to show I don‘t know .

 

[Ed Sutton]

This is a nightmare. I used to belong to a dog breed club that sold stuff with photos of the breed on but you couldn't use any UK dog as people wouldn’t buy it because they hated the owner or the dog or whatever … so it had to be an overseas dog. What they do now that people come from all over to show I don‘t know .

I've known people refuse to join angling clubs because of who the Secretary was!

 

[sphexx]

I've known people refuse to join angling clubs because of who the Secretary was!

I was Chairman of a dog breed club and there was a rebellion by influential members who were also members of other clubs (and the KC) due to my getting a particular naturally occurring colour variety rightly approved by the Kennel Club and the whole Committee was sacked at at the AGM. The colour remains approved. My finest hour!

 

[Ed Sutton]

It was an interesting day at the sale. Quite a few new faces, and at least two of them left with their first Lonks. One sold his last remaining Gritstones last week to make room for the new sheep. He reckoned Gritstones were being bred too small these days. Anyway this is a couple of very poor video clips I made. I think the first one gives a better idea of the number of shearlings in the show than one still frame. I think I could get into doing video properly if it didn't need different gear, a more powerful computer, and lots of time. But mostly if I was thirty years younger... I'll stick with what I know. I manage to mess that up enough as it is!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xgNGd0_70U

 

[Ed Sutton]

Maybe you should write a longer criticism and offer it to him as a guest post!

I've just replied to his latest post which contained some drivel that made my blood boil! In all honesty I wish I could erase TOP from my memory. I deleted the bookmark I had for it a long time ago but I keep having a look. I really shouldn't. There must be a way I can block the site from my browser!

 

[sphexx]

I've just replied to his latest post which contained some drivel that made my blood boil! In all honesty I wish I could erase TOP from my memory. I deleted the bookmark I had for it a long time ago but I keep having a look. I really shouldn't. There must be a way I can block the site from my browser!

Oh dear, sounds like an addiction maybe you should sign up tp Bloggers Anonymous , that’ll be something you have in common with him!

I’ll watch for your comment but who knows when or if it will be posted. I think he’s cracking up .

 

[Ed Sutton]

I’ll watch for your comment but who knows when or if it will be posted. I think he’s cracking up .

A dwindling income from TOP must be a worry for him.

Oh dear, sounds like an addiction maybe you should sign up tp Bloggers Anonymous , that’ll be something you have in common with him!

My only addiction is watching sheep farming Youtubers. Which reminds me, I have the latest from The Sheepgame bookmarked to watch over lunch.

 

[sphexx]

A dwindling income from TOP must be a worry for him.

I’m a (very small) Patreon supporter — I think I was the first one but I felt honour bound since I’d urged him to start a Patreon when he was finding (I think) PayPal didn’t work for him.

I thiink he’s an obsessive “editor” (which he is good at) whereas he needs to change the commenting system so comments go directly, have more guest posts and/or have a stack of his old stuff to repost when he has nothing new and maybe put his dieting etc on a senate ’tab’. Or something like that. I have told him often enough and in fact he says he’s moving the blog to a different platform and doing much of that but I’ll believe it when I see it.

He’s pretty hopeless at some practical stuff -- eg he says he can’t find someone’s email but I’ve recommended he get InfoClick that does a proper one indexing of Apple Mail and can find almost anything so long as you remember something of the email. Then again he says Typepad sometimes loses a long post he’s written because it seems he types.it straight into their system rather than on his own software first!

Oops, I seem to have gone completely OT, I’m feeling a bit sheepish .

My only addiction is watching sheep farming Youtubers.

Gosh! I’d never had guessed.

Which reminds me, I have the latest from The Sheepgame bookmarked to watch over lunch.

 

[Ed Sutton]

Gosh! I’d never had guessed.

I expect that part of MJ's current problem is that after all these years he's both running out of steam and material. Which is understandable. It amazes me that he's made a living from TOP for so long.

I'll have to go find some sheep later to get the thread back on track!

 

[Ed Sutton]

Another Saturday, another sale. Today it was the annual Gritstone sale. It took me a while to get up to speed as I am feeling burnt out. However it was a good day and switching off silent shooting in liveview did get rid of the bars. I don't seem to haev switched off face detection in liveview though, which messed up more shots again.

A quick run through found some 'subframed' pictures. It's a bit of a trick technique and easy to overdo. Not easy to do well when it comes to getting sheep where you'd like them though.







I did see something new, but not sure I made effective pictures of it. All will be revealed tomorrow when I've had a better sort through, and a sleep!

 

[Ed Sutton]

Autumn is the time of year when breed societies register sheep. This is done to sheep which meet the breed standard and makes them eligible for the pedigree/pure bred sales and entry to certain shows. Once a sheep is approved it has to be marked in some way. Lonks are horn branded, Gritstones are hornless so they are tattooed on the inside of an ear. One side of the pliers has an inked pad, the other side an arrangement of pins.





The pre-show sale was held in the same unphotogenic shed as the Lonk show last week and the line ups of sheep looked pretty much the same. Minus horns!



It got a bit more chaotic at times though.



There were over twice as many sheep to be sold this week, and a packed house for the sale. I left it too late to get a ringside space again, only managing to squeeze myself in late on.

Noting down the hammer prices.



Three generations of Mitchell in the ring.

 

[Ed Sutton]

I've been suffering from a lack of sheep to photograph, and too much work. Today I had planned to get out early and go look for some. Then I got a notification that the printer I was expecting to arrive on Monday was out for delivery. Another fine day ruined. When it arrived earlier than I thought it would I had to get out! of course, by the time I got where I was going the sun was making itself scarce so I only got a couple of shots.

This one's had some AI bokeh applied courtesy of Lightroom's new feature.



Still trying to get the killer shot of a Lonk by a moorland ruin with something urban in the distance. Two out of three here. The information board is a distraction.



The last of the big sales at Clitheroe Friday and Saturday. Mixed breeds with tups on the second day, but lots of them. My plan is to try something different. It'll probably not happen though!

In other news... Having been to sixteen shows where Lonks were being exhibited I thought I'd put together a zine of the best photos from each show. When I sat down to go through them it made me realise what a load of rubbish I've shot, and how many pictures I should have got that I haven't. It looks like I'll have to ditch the idea of having so many from each show and mix them up a bit. It's also a bit of a problem deciding who to aim the selection at.

However, now being an honorary member of the Lonk Sheep Breeders Association I have foolishly offered to help them put together a promotional booklet! They don't have much money so it won't be a lavish production, and should be easy enough to put together. If I'm lucky it'll get me on farm to take some shots for a flock profile or two. They also have plans afoot to try to get me free tickets to some of next year's shows. Just when I'd decided not to go to quite so many in 2024. I'm not sure I can take the pressure! What I will be doing is more planning ahead for the shots I want to get. He said unconvincingly.

Expect more sheep nonsense later this week.

Thanks for looking. All thoughts gratefully received.

 

[sphexx]

Congrats on becoming an ”honarary”you’re in danger of being the Hon. Member for Sheep here

 

[sirch]

I'm liking the recent work

When I sat down to go through them it made me realise what a load of rubbish I've shot

Surely not, I guess your standards for zine content are a bit higher than mine

 

[Ed Sutton]

I'm liking the recent work

Thanks.

Surely not, I guess your standards for zine content are a bit higher than mine

It's as much a case of actually having an audience for a zine of Lonk photos as having a load of rubbish pics. Which is a first.

I'm mindful of not putting in too many pictures of one person, missing some out, not filling it with 'arty' shots and so forth.

I've whittled 1784 show photos down to 299, which was a chore. Now the hard work starts.

 

[Ed Sutton]

The last of the big sales at Clitheroe Friday and Saturday. Mixed breeds with tups on the second day, but lots of them. My plan is to try something different. It'll probably not happen though!

It did! I even went one step further.

But first. A mart café breakfast.



And a woolly jumper.

 

[sphexx]

It did! I even went one step further.

But first. A mart café breakfast.

View attachment 405115

Looks about right but is that half a tomato hiding shyly on the plate? I’ve been to more than a few events frequented by farmers and vegetables were conspicuous only by their rarity

 

[Ed Sutton]

Looks about right but is that half a tomato hiding shyly on the plate? I’ve been to more than a few events frequented by farmers and vegetables were conspicuous only by their rarity

It is. The chap ahead of me thought my plate was his and said, "I didn't want tomato!"

The plan was to leave my pair of 'cover all eventualities' zooms in the bag and use the two focal lengths that were all I had back in the old days. 28mm and 50mm. I've tried this before but given up after a few frames. Maybe it was because I picked up a couple of books from the '70s recently and saw what could be done with a limited selection of lenses that I persevered today. And also why I did the unthinkable.



After a handful of snaps I set my cameras to shoot in black and white!!!!!! OK, I cheated by shooting raw so I still had the option of colour processing, but I haven't cropped anything. Even more retro was focusing manually. Since I got my cataract removed it's become a possibility for me again. At times it proved quicker than trying to get a focus point on a subject.





I tried to find a picture that showed how packed with trailers the car parks were. Full to overflowing.



Homage to Robert Frank?





I was also less trigger happy than I've become, making a conscious decision to take photos of things that might make a picture. As this was just a general sale, albeit with Lonks present, I felt like I was under less pressure for some reason. Probably because of the fairly cramped situations, and trying to get in close to subjects, I took most of the shots with the 28mm.

Black and white still seems too easy to me. Easy to make bold or striking shapes in the picture space that is. There's gesture and information to consider whichever way you go, so it's still not that easy.

I'll take a look at the pictures in colour tomorrow. There are some that need to be in colour. A bright pink spot of marker spray on a sheep's back doesn't work in monochrome. The Lonk pictures need to be in colour to go in the project file too.

A couple more monos to follow.

 

[Ed Sutton]

It's really hard to convey how packed and frenetic a sale can be in a few still images. But that's what I was trying to do today.



Still playing around with the shutter speed.








Legs.



28mm for portraiture?



All thoughts on this approach welcome. If you can bear it there's a gallery here - https://photos.app.goo.gl/hQpxsFeLZhPbz2NT6

 

[sphexx]

It is. The chap ahead of me thought my plate was his and said, "I didn't want tomato!"

 

[sphexx]

It's really hard to convey how packed and frenetic a sale can be in a few still images. But that's what I was trying to do today.

View attachment 405127

Still playing around with the shutter speed.

View attachment 405128




View attachment 405129

Legs.

View attachment 405130

28mm for portraiture?

View attachment 405131

All thoughts on this approach welcome. If you can bear it there's a gallery here - https://photos.app.goo.gl/hQpxsFeLZhPbz2NT6

Not sure my opinion’s worth anything because I favour b&w and 28mm but as far as the crowding and (organised) chaos is concerned today’s effort do it for me. I guess from a sheep’s eye view it’s all chaotic .

Obviously there’s more info in colour versions. I wonder what the “sheep people” (humans that is) think of B&W? I fancy some may like it being perhaps used to seeing old photos of sheep/sheep people in B&W and feeling the continuity?

 

[Ed Sutton]

Not sure my opinion’s worth anything because I favour b&w and 28mm but as far as the crowding and (organised) chaos is concerned today’s effort do it for me. I guess from a sheep’s eye view it’s all chaotic .

Obviously there’s more info in colour versions. I wonder what the “sheep people” (humans that is) think of B&W? I fancy some may like it being perhaps used to seeing old photos of sheep/sheep people in B&W and feeling the continuity?

Thanks.

I'll give the black and white's a try on Facebook and see what the reaction is. I know a few of my fishing friends like it.

This one is pointless in black and white!

 

[superpippo]

I enjoyed seeing the B&W - some of the herd type photos are very good.
But then I saw the last colour version of the sheeps coat and i think that even without the pink marker it is still better in colour because of the variations on the brown and white coat.