When are people going to realise

The only camera shop in my town closed over 35 years ago and that wasn't down to grey imports or the internet.... The only choice I have had for years is buying on-line....
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
Town centers would be made up of entertainment, hospitality, personal services, and time sensitive convenience outlets. And may be outlets catering to tourist needs.
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If only, more likely is a few charity shops and abandoned doorways with junkies sleeping it off under a dilapidated tarpaulin.
 
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magicaxeman said:
That in buying grey imports they are putting British retailers out of business as well as breaking the law by dodging the import duty and tax
this has a two fold effect, the first and most serious one is that it directly affects the UK dealers sales and the resultant drop in sales means people lose their jobs and towns lose their camera retailers which are not just shops but local centres of photographers, many of the staff having years of experience they are more than willing to share. By dodging the tax you are directly affecting the income the government relies on, not to stuff their pockets but to pay for things like the repair of potholes, disabled and elderly care etc.
It really gets my goat when people try to push down your legally bought gears price to compete with grey imports.. hmm why are we still sanitising them with that title, they’re smuggled goods most often brought in by declaring the goods as having a very low value but buying them is not different to buying smuggled booze and fags.
so would you expect your local Tesco’s to sell you a bottle of scotch or 20 ciggies for the same price as you can get them from your mate bert round the corner?
If you know you can get something cheaper by buying smuggled then just bloody well buy it without hassling sellers .
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What a complete and utter load of tripe.

Buying a grey import does not in any shape or form equate to any kind of breaking of any laws. Import tax still applies.

Propping up a failing business is none of my concern. My only concern is getting the best price for a bit of equipment that I can and to not get ripped off in the process.

Times change, no single business has a divine right to exist.
 
keety said:
What a complete and utter load of tripe.

Buying a grey import does not in any shape or form equate to any kind of breaking of any laws. Import tax still applies.

Propping up a failing business is none of my concern. My only concern is getting the best price for a bit of equipment that I can and to not get ripped off in the process.

Times change, no single business has a divine right to exist.
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I think he's just peed off because he overpriced some gear in the classifieds tbh
 
keety said:
Propping up a failing business is none of my concern. My only concern is getting the best price for a bit of equipment that I can and to not get ripped off in the process.

Times change, no single business has a divine right to exist.
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Even if the 'failing' business has been subjected to unfair and unlawful competition and this is what is causing it to 'fail'?

'Best price' for many is not the cheapest - but if it is, it is a race to the bottom - no money for training, for research and development, for service and so on.
 
Pound Coin said:
Even if the 'failing' business has been subjected to unfair and unlawful competition and this is what is causing it to 'fail'?

'Best price' for many is not the cheapest - but if it is, it is a race to the bottom - no money for training, for research and development, for service and so on.
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How is a business in the UK or even abroad advertising their products online at a cheaper price unfair or unlawful competition?

It's strange how in one thread you're against companies like Adobe charging a reasonable month fee for their software (which I assume not only pays their shareholders but also for training, research and development) but in another you're against businesses offering goods for less because it stifles training , research and development. :thinking:

It's called capitalism and it's great.
 
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ecoleman said:
How is a business in the UK or even abroad advertising their products online at a cheaper price unfair or unlawful competition?

It's strange how in one thread you're against companies like Adobe charging a reasonable month fee for their software (which I assume not only pays their shareholders but also for training, research and development) but in another you're against businesses offering goods for less because it stifles training , research and development. :thinking:

It's called capitalism and it's great.
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Well, your first sentence is a massive conclusion jump.

And as someone who does use personal software for business, your second paragraph takes a biscuit or two.
 
I went on a Sony day at WEX last year, the event was great and it allowed me to try out the camera I was interested in. My background was retail so I knew there would be “exclusive” offers - there was - I could get 10% off - this meant the ARV was £3500ish - I already knew that “grey” was approx £2900 - I wanted them to come down a bit more to buy there and then, which they did by another £100. However the £500 difference was still to much so I took a chance and went with Panamoz.

The camera was delivered in about 3 days, one minor issue which I didn’t realise was that the box had been opened to replace the power cable - now the camera was pristine and when I checked the shutter count I think it was on about 14 - which again could mean someone had it before me etc, but they said they test before sending out.

However when I said I wasn’t told etc they actually knocked some more money off so I ended up paying just over £2600 - this also included my import tax which like almost everything in the UK is shipped in to the country no matter who you buy it from and is perfectly legal.

Grey importers are not dodging tax they are just not “official” suppliers which means they don’t have to sell at the RRP but also means they can not usually claim the manufacturers warranty.

They are also not paying for premises etc, advertising to a certain extent, commissions, rates etc etc hence the difference in price.

As to the saving I made from Panamoz and getting the camera at a significant discount as well as their customer service being amazing - I will 100% buy from them again.

Just my opinion!
 
Pound Coin said:
And as someone who does use personal software for business
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I'm such a rebel. :police:

Have you reported me yet? I'm sure you'll get a real buzz out of that :mooning:

Here is some lite reading for you before you spout any more sewerage

Can I use Individual license for businesses?

I want adobe Photoshop individual license for my business. Can I use Individual license for my team? And what price it is , if I pay it in month?
community.adobe.com community.adobe.com
 
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keety said:
Buying a grey import does not in any shape or form equate to any kind of breaking of any laws.

Times change, no single business has a divine right to exist.
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I agreee
keety said:
Import tax still applies.
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It does, but for some reason these companies always make a mistake when completing the customs form. A £2000 lens is described as £20 worth of children's clothing . . .
That's evasion, which is illegal.
 
Garry Edwards said:
I agreee

It does, but for some reason these companies always make a mistake when completing the customs form. A £2000 lens is described as £20 worth of children's clothing . . .
That's evasion, which is illegal.
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Can you substantiate that?
 
Garry Edwards said:
Yes, it's happened to me - not expensive camera gear, but other stuff bought from abroad.
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£2000 marked as £20?

I buy a lot of things from abroad, I have had it happen on minor things. but never on something so expensive.
Most companies won't do it on expensive items, as if it doesn't get to you, they may well lose out, depending on how it is tracked.

I do not believe that is happens "always" on expensive items like cameras.
 
Sangoma said:
£2000 marked as £20?

I buy a lot of things from abroad, I have had it happen on minor things. but never on something so expensive.
Most companies won't do it on expensive items, as if it doesn't get to you, they may well lose out, depending on how it is tracked.

I do not believe that is happens "always" on expensive items like cameras.
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Even if it doesn't, these cameras/lenses are getting to the UK without VAT being paid, so something is wrong with the system or documentation.

I too have had an expensive item (£1,200 specialist scanner) marked down as a gift - yet when I buy form US/German/Canadian industrial machine breakers (which I do as part of my job), I always get a VAT bill :)
 
Mr Perceptive said:
Even if it doesn't, these cameras/lenses are getting to the UK without VAT being paid, so something is wrong with the system or documentation.

I too have had an expensive item (£1,200 specialist scanner) marked down as a gift - yet when I buy form US/German/Canadian industrial machine breakers (which I do as part of my job), I always get a VAT bill :)
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But how do we know VAT isn't being paid?
It is the end user that pays VAT, and from what I have seen, the importers of grey products are usually businesses.
Anything sold on ebay, aliexpress and others has its VAT collected by the platform now.

I have no doubt that some things get through without duty and VAT being paid (the mark down in value often at the request of the buyer), but not "always" and I think in a minority.
 
Sangoma said:
But how do we know VAT isn't being paid?
It is the end user that pays VAT, and from what I have seen, the importers of grey products are usually businesses.
Anything sold on ebay, aliexpress and others has its VAT collected by the platform now.

I have no doubt that some things get through without duty and VAT being paid (the mark down in value often at the request of the buyer), but not "always" and I think in a minority.
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In those cases I get a VAT invoice, certain grey sellers will not provide a VAT invoice, and even state so on their T&Cs
 
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IIRC
(At least) One bricks & mortar grey selling business says in its terms that they are operating as the agent for, you, the buyer! How that would work should the buyer ever get investigated by HMRC I don't know....... especially as the product seems to be delivered to you from their UK based inventory i.e. it is already "here" so has actually already been imported :thinking:
 
Mr Perceptive said:
In those cases I get a VAT invoice, certain grey sellers will not provide a VAT invoice, and even state so on their T&Cs
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No VAT invoice does not mean that VAT has not been paid (it does not mean it has been paid either) it mainly means that the buyer can not claim back any VAT that they might normally be able to.

Though depending where those sellers are located, it might be likely that VAT has not been paid
 
Sangoma said:
No VAT invoice does not mean that VAT has not been paid (it does not mean it has been paid either) it mainly means that the buyer can not claim back any VAT that they might normally be able to.

Though depending where those sellers are located, it might be likely that VAT has not been paid
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Pointless discussing with you, I've only run businesses that have imported goods from a variety of sources for the last 30 years :)
 
While some grey importers probably "fiddle" the tax man, the same could be said of British companies and even the elite can make a mistake..... :oops: :$link Thats different from the death of camera shops. Theres a lot of factors at play there. Pubs and hotels, all sorts of town center businesses are dying.
 
Box Brownie said:
IIRC
(At least) One bricks & mortar grey selling business says in its terms that they are operating as the agent for, you, the buyer!
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That seems rather iffy. This page discusses what the real situation is...

Can a seller of goods ever be an agent?

Can a seller of goods ever be an agent? Whilst the question is a reasonable one given the various arrangements which arise between sellers, distributors and agents, confusingly the answer from a number of reported judgments appears to be no but, no but, yes! The starting point is the definition...
www.agentlaw.co.uk www.agentlaw.co.uk

So far as I can make out, the claim of being an agent wouldn't stand up. If the "agent" supplies something from stock already held by them they would be "selling or purchasing goods purely in their own interest".
 
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AndrewFlannigan said:
That seems rather iffy. This page discusses what the real situation is...

Can a seller of goods ever be an agent?

Can a seller of goods ever be an agent? Whilst the question is a reasonable one given the various arrangements which arise between sellers, distributors and agents, confusingly the answer from a number of reported judgments appears to be no but, no but, yes! The starting point is the definition...
www.agentlaw.co.uk www.agentlaw.co.uk

So far as I can make out, the claim of being an agent wouldn't stand up. If the "agent" supplies something from stock already held by them they would be "selling or purchasing goods purely in their own interest".
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In regard to stock already in the UK, it I think was mentioned but now not showing, though it might have been more anecdotal comments about how quickly the product arrived = could only be so quick if in the UK.

However, this is what this company says.....about how they operate.

"Selling as Disclosed Agent

With the move to online trading, HDEW adapted its business model by launching this website over 15 years ago. We have also broadened our product range by offering a sourcing service as a disclosed agent for Plemix in the Hong Kong. When you buy through this sourcing service, you are buying direct from Plemix with HDEW Cameras acting as agent."

FWIW I know of folk that have used this company and found them reliable.

As per the discussion overall, buying grey is entirely a personal choice.
 
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Faldrax said:
Interestingly here in the south of Hampshire we have 2 LCE's in Southampton (One mainly Canon / Nikon, the other mainly Sony), and another in Winchester - and certainly whenever I've visited the Sony centric one in Southampton the staff have seemed knowledgeable and helpful.
We used to have 2 Jessops, and 2 or 3 independents as well - both the Jessops have gone, I'm not sure about the independents (LCE always had much better Sony stock, so that's where I go).
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I live between Middlesbrough and Redcar and I believe it's one of the poorest areas of the country so maybe that's a part of it. Back when I got my first 35mm slr there were three local camera shops and all have now gone so the only local camera kit seller is now Currys.

Contrast this to Thailand where Mrs WW is from, when last there I went into a shopping centre and they had three camera shops within yards of each other. All seemed to have just about everything I cold think of in the window or on display inside and appeared to be over staffed with people falling over themselves to help. I do wish it was like that here :D
 
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woof woof said:
I live between Middlesbrough and Redcar and I believe it's one of the poorest areas of the country so maybe that's a part of it. Back when I got my first 35mm slr there were three local camera shops and all have now gone so the only local camera kit seller is now Currys.

Contrast this to Thailand where Mrs WW is from, when last there I went into a shopping centre and they had three camera shops within yards of each other. All seemed to have just about everything I cold think of in the window or on display inside and appeared to be over staffed with people falling over themselves to help. I do wish it was like that here :D
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Lindsay gave two good reasons why that might be up thread. Rent will be massively smaller. Wages too, I wouldn't doubt.
 
Just wonder if Revenues and Customs have any inspectors who are keen photographers and are members of this forum? This topic has been done to death and I've yet to see any consequences of this alleged illicit activity.
As regards buying from bricks-and-mortar stores, to the best of my knowledge there have NEVER been any camera retailers in my small town. It's about a 2 hour drive, or an hour on the train, to get to the nearest. I prefer to be able to buy what I want from whomever I want, irrespective of their location. It's my business, no-one else's.
 
Well, if the waiting times for HMRC phone calls is anything to go by I'd imagine that 'austerity' will mean that Customs won't have enough resource to follow up things like they used to.
 
woof woof said:
I live between Middlesbrough and Redcar and I believe it's one of the poorest areas of the country so maybe that's a part of it. Back when I got my first 35mm slr there were three local camera shops and all have now gone so the only local camera kit seller is now Currys.

Contrast this to Thailand where Mrs WW is from, when last there I went into a shopping centre and they had three camera shops within yards of each other. All seemed to have just about everything I cold think of in the window or on display inside and appeared to be over staffed with people falling over themselves to help. I do wish it was like that here :D
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I think it used to be. I had dealings with Laskys and Technical and Optical Equipment when I was in SA, and their service was second to none, in fact British firms had a reputation for excellent service.
Now it seems it is cheaper to lose customers than it is to deal with any problems.

Philippines is like that for service too, but you have to chuckle at their job adverts, like for a counter assistant "University degree, attractive, pleasant personality, not over 5'3" and not over 55kg"
Try that here :)
 
There is also a possibility that a mature business such as Panamoz has established their way of working by having End User Certificates to get around some aspects of the import process. I vaguely recall when importing an aircraft kit from the USA, my agent got me an EUC that could be presented to HMRC at the port of arrival, to prevent having to pay VAT on the kit - but it may have been because it was a kit of parts rather than a complete aeroplane on which VAT would have been payable. Maybe camera importers have template EUC's and describe the stuff they bring in as camera kits - after all, a body is no use without a lens and vice versa.
 
@Don Fischer that's because it would require sellers in other countries to register with the UK HMRC as a business and remit the tax to them - some do, but it's one of the reasons that many EU-based companies have stopped selling to the UK after Brexit, because it's a layer of complexity and bureaucracy they can't be bothered with, is uneconomic for them, or just on principle.
 
Don’t even know why this thread got started , grey imports exist there not illegal ,there not going to go away . It’s down to the individual which they choose to buy from . There are To many variables in choice of how and where to buy .
Banning grey imports will not bring back local camera shops the only growth in local retail these days is hairdressers , gyms, barbers and charity shops / secondhand shops ..
i Can see a time when if you have the cash / credit card it will be cheaper to actually jump on a flight have a couple of days holiday and buy your gear abroad ,de box it and have the boxes posted home … that’s if the pound actually gets some value back
 
Sangoma said:
I think it used to be. I had dealings with Laskys and Technical and Optical Equipment when I was in SA, and their service was second to none, in fact British firms had a reputation for excellent service.
Now it seems it is cheaper to lose customers than it is to deal with any problems.

Philippines is like that for service too, but you have to chuckle at their job adverts, like for a counter assistant "University degree, attractive, pleasant personality, not over 5'3" and not over 55kg"
Try that here :)
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Totally unrelated to shops.......

I recall when I stayed in Thetford on business on more than one occasion noticing in the bar I could hear American voices and learned that the hotel regularly had US air force pilots staying.

The two or three guys I saw were on the shorter and lighter end of male physique. I later learned that in the US air force this was common for their fast jet pilots............the lighter & smaller(with in limits) they were the better! Not withstanding it is now not uncommon to have female pilots in fast combat jet roles for the same reasoning .
 
I think your government has one of the same problems ours does. They make laws they have no intention of enforcing, they make them as a source of revenue! Of course if the wrong person breaks it then it's time to enforce no matter what it cost's!
 
woof woof said:
I live between Middlesbrough and Redcar and I believe it's one of the poorest areas of the country so maybe that's a part of it. Back when I got my first 35mm slr there were three local camera shops and all have now gone so the only local camera kit seller is now Currys.

Contrast this to Thailand where Mrs WW is from, when last there I went into a shopping centre and they had three camera shops within yards of each other. All seemed to have just about everything I cold think of in the window or on display inside and appeared to be over staffed with people falling over themselves to help. I do wish it was like that here :D
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That's my experience in Thailand as well... We have a house over there and there's "Big Camera" shop at a Lotus store about a mile from our house in Uttaradit....
 
Sangoma said:
I think it used to be. I had dealings with Laskys and Technical and Optical Equipment when I was in SA, and their service was second to none, in fact British firms had a reputation for excellent service.
Now it seems it is cheaper to lose customers than it is to deal with any problems.

Philippines is like that for service too, but you have to chuckle at their job adverts, like for a counter assistant "University degree, attractive, pleasant personality, not over 5'3" and not over 55kg"
Try that here :)
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University degree: OK, means they want people who have a proven ability to understand things.
Attractive: Well, dubious as that may be, I suppose it is nicer if you are being attended to by someone pleasant to look at.
Not over 55kg: Again, a little dubious, but it keeps out 25 stone sweaty munters, who are likely to put people off.
But not over 5'3"?: That's just weird. Why would that be important? Unless they keep all their backroom goods in tiny cellars.
 
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