Why hasn't mirroless taken over?

fujilover said:
Ah but there is a TV and a Chinese low quality TV that have taken over the budget market.

Well made mid and high end quality TV`s are still very expensive.

If this was a TV enthusiast forum many of us would have TV`s between £1000 - £3000+
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That's an interesting parallel too.

As a movie geek, I've got an expensive OLED and Dolby Atmos set up in my living room. I love the black levels, the contrast and the depth of the image. I still buy 4K Blu-ray because the bitrate means the presentation of the films is as good as it can be for home consumption.

No thin sound with muddy midrange, no macroblocking or compression noise in the picture. Just a beautiful image.

To 95% of people, Netflix and a cheap Chinese brand TV is enough. They'd think I was insane to spend so much money on my equipment and I think that segues quite interestingly into photography.

The cheap Chinese manufacturer equivalent in this scenario is the rise of the integrated camera in phones.

A jack of all trades solution that provides image quality 95% of people will he happy with.

They've even usurped portable listening devices, the only alternative now are the high end portables that start at £700 that are aimed at audiophiles and lossless music.

Phones have taken the casual market on both counts which means that high volume sales of cheaper, entry level devices are no longer around and can't support the subsidising of higher end kit. Or at least that's my take.
 
SsSsSsSsSnake said:
TV prices have dropped considerably ,why haven’t cameras.
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They have.

In 1969, the "cheapo" Praktica Nova 1B single lens reflex cost £52 with the 3 element Domiplan lens. Adjusting for inflation, that's £610 and it bought you an instant return mirror and a meter (which didn't even measure the light through the lens). You then had to pay around 30p (in current money) for every single image you recorded, whether it worked or not.

Today, you can buy a Nikon D3500 digital single lens reflex with a 18~55mm zoom lens, through the lens metering in multiple modes and a 24MP sensor. What's more: you don't pay a penny for the images you record.

If that isn't a massive price drop, I don't know what is. Anyway, here's a photographer of my aquaintance using a Praktica Nova...

Kirsten with Praktica Nova 1 1976_3_32.jpg
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
They have.

In 1969, the "cheapo" Praktica Nova 1B single lens reflex cost £52 with the 3 element Domiplan lens. Adjusting for inflation...
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That's something people seem to forget to do.

I've read a few articles in recent years comparing prices of years ago to now and they've al said the same... Even the old manual film era primes I've been buying weren't cheap in their day. I've not done the research myself but I do believe that modern kit isn't exorbitantly expensive once we take inflation into account.

Just googled that camera and lens and it's under £500 for...

  • Nikon D3500 & 18-55mm
  • Dick Smith DSLR camera bag
  • Lexar 64GB memory card
  • Hahnel 5-in-1 cleaning kit

Not cameras or lenses but... This made me remember when I was an apprentice, I bought a calculator and when the batteries were running down it gave wrong answers so I really had to watch it. I looked for a better one and I bought a Casio which I still have. In those days I think that calculator cost more than two weeks wages.
 
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Every thing is priced to accommodate a particular income groups ability to pay.
This is as true of cameras or what ever.
This has always been the case in the 1800's or the 1950's or today. Price ranges have matched the ability to pay.
What is perhaps more noticeable is the steady rise in the technical ability and automation incorporated in photographic kit over the same period.
Even the simplest camera today easily achieve what an 1800's photographer would have considered miraculous.

It is certain that the technical advances and the ability to achieve high quality images has out paced inflation by some distance.
The advent of mirrorless has made possible a further long step in new directions.

While the advent of Drones has created a whole new genre of photography. that incorporates mirrorless capture,,, wifi, Gimbals. long life and low weight battery power, GPS, and electronic automated Ai controls. That is now changing warfare as much as it has photography.
 
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I bought a Praktica Nova in 1971 (second hand from a local camera shop). It certainly got me going with SLR's but the camera was unreliable and failed completely after 12 months. I learnt from this and have always bought new since. However, in 1971 I had just married and bought a house but was not earning much in those days.

Dave
 
I remember the Prakticas well because my brother had one. Not a piece of photographic equipment for which I have even a trace of fondness.
 
Plain Nev said:
I want to get out my Praktica Nova now. :D
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If it still works!

VEB Pentacon, as they were by then, had a successful line of Prakticas, culminating in the heavy but reliable IV, until some idiot designed the Nova series. None of them (Nova, Nova 1, PrakticaMat or Super TL) were better than mediocre, unless you were lucky. Then the LTL came along and fixed the problems with a modern vertical running blade shutter that was remarkably reliable and a film transport that, if not jam proof, was certainly more reliable than the Nova series mechanicals.

I count myself luckier than most, as I carried three Nova 1 bodies for press photography in the mid-seventies. None of them jammed and they earned a great deal more than they cost. Still, I was mighty relieved when I felt rich enough to replace them with a well worn but trustworthy Nikon F!

One of those Nova pictures for an article in a local newspaper...

Praktica Nova 1 1976_05_12.jpg
 
Nikon and Canon budget DSLR's have awful viewfinders they are like looking through fog.
Give me an EVF anyday.
 
rob-nikon said:
I get where you’re coming from but this is confusing the general outlook of Interchangeable Lens Cameras as a whole to a technological change from DSLRs to mirrorless. With this thinking both mirrorless and DSLRs are both dead duck technologies if there are no future releases if there are no buyers. No future products sales means no future DSLR releases and no spares for repair. Eventually all cameras out there will naturally decline through failure for even simple repairs when there are no future sales. Even getting new batteries will probably be an issue as they’re bespoke rather than a standard battery type.

there’s a bigger inventory of second hand DSLRs out compared to mirrorless so DSLRs will last a decade or so but being electronic unlike mechanical film cameras won’t have anywhere near the life expectancy of mechanical film cameras which are still working decades later as long as film is produced.

Regarding APSC mirrorless releases there’s a potential market hence the release. I think the reason most manufacturers first released full frame mirrorless is due to landscape photographers preferring FF. they dont need great AF so it worked well for the manufacturers as initially AF wasn’t great on mirrorless. Now AF has improved the sports/action cameras have started to appear. If canon would have released an APSC R7 with poor AF that would have been worse than not releasing one at all hence the delay.
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Nikons first mirrorless interchangeable lens system now discontinued (I beleive) was not full frame.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
If it still works!

VEB Pentacon, as they were by then, had a successful line of Prakticas, culminating in the heavy but reliable IV, until some idiot designed the Nova series. None of them (Nova, Nova 1, PrakticaMat or Super TL) were better than mediocre, unless you were lucky. Then the LTL came along and fixed the problems with a modern vertical running blade shutter that was remarkably reliable and a film transport that, if not jam proof, was certainly more reliable than the Nova series mechanicals.

I count myself luckier than most, as I carried three Nova 1 bodies for press photography in the mid-seventies. None of them jammed and they earned a great deal more than they cost. Still, I was mighty relieved when I felt rich enough to replace them with a well worn but trustworthy Nikon F!

One of those Nova pictures for an article in a local newspaper...

View attachment 362121
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Well, it seems to. Mechanically, at least. I've looked at it before and thought, shall I? But I never quite have somehow. Might be a bit of fun.
 
alfbranch said:
Nikons first mirrorless interchangeable lens system now discontinued (I beleive) was not full frame.
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I guessing you’re talking about the Nikon J series with its 2.7 crop factor sensor. I think for most photographers it was never seen as a possible rival to overtake Nikons full frame or APS-C crop DSLRs. I always thought of it as nikons last throw of the dice trying to recapture sales from those who had bought compact cameras in the past but we’re moving towards camera phones. Canon had the M series but that felt like it was aimed towards vloggers rather than photographers.
 
woof woof said:
That's something people seem to forget to do.

I've read a few articles in recent years comparing prices of years ago to now and they've al said the same... Even the old manual film era primes I've been buying weren't cheap in their day. I've not done the research myself but I do believe that modern kit isn't exorbitantly expensive once we take inflation into account.

Just googled that camera and lens and it's under £500 for...

  • Nikon D3500 & 18-55mm
  • Dick Smith DSLR camera bag
  • Lexar 64GB memory card
  • Hahnel 5-in-1 cleaning kit

Not cameras or lenses but... This made me remember when I was an apprentice, I bought a calculator and when the batteries were running down it gave wrong answers so I really had to watch it. I looked for a better one and I bought a Casio which I still have. In those days I think that calculator cost more than two weeks wages.
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I just bought a Nikon d3300 £140 and 70-300 afp vr £170 an Afp 18-55 vr can get for £57
 
SsSsSsSsSnake said:
I just bought a Nikon d3300 £140 and 70-300 afp vr £170 an Afp 18-55 vr can get for £57
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That looks like a good deal and I hope it gives you a lot of enjoyment.

I'd rather take a cheap mirrorless camera and a prime. I think the cheapest combination I have at the mo is the Panasonic GX80 and 14mm f2.5 but a 20mm f1.7 or 25mm f1.7/1.8 could maybe be had for about the same price. Wouldn't be as versatile as a two zoom set up but I do prefer primes.
 
rob-nikon said:
I guessing you’re talking about the Nikon J series with its 2.7 crop factor sensor. I think for most photographers it was never seen as a possible rival to overtake Nikons full frame or APS-C crop DSLRs. I always thought of it as nikons last throw of the dice trying to recapture sales from those who had bought compact cameras in the past but we’re moving towards camera phones. Canon had the M series but that felt like it was aimed towards vloggers rather than photographers.
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A fact is fact btw.
Nikons first mirrorless system was not full frame and you could attach it to massive tephoto lens.
 
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woof woof said:
That looks like a good deal and I hope it gives you a lot of enjoyment.

I'd rather take a cheap mirrorless camera and a prime. I think the cheapest combination I have at the mo is the Panasonic GX80 and 14mm f2.5 but a 20mm f1.7 or 25mm f1.7/1.8 could maybe be had for about the same price. Wouldn't be as versatile as a two zoom set up but I do prefer primes.
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I bought the 35 1.8g with hood boxed etc £85 ,I also like mirrorless and I love my Fuji Xt100 with at the moment 15-45 vr .I prefer the Sony Bayer sensor in the Xt100 to the trans models, interestingly the Nikon has the excellent Sony sensor also :). thanks for your wishes Alan
 
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SsSsSsSsSnake said:
I bought the 35 1.8g with hood boxed etc £85 ,I also like mirrorless and I love my Fuji Xt100 with at the moment 15-45 vr .I prefer the Sony Bayer sensor in the Xt100 to the trans models, interestingly the Nikon has the excellent Sony sensor also :). thanks for your wishes Alan
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Don't forget to post some pictures you take with it :D
 
alfbranch said:
A fact is fact btw.
Nikons first mirrorless system was not full frame and you could attach it to massive tephoto lens.
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I’ve edited the original post (see below) to highlight I was talking about the currently available second generation mirrorless systems that will replace their DSLRs counterparts in reply to a discussion about recent APC-S mirrorless release.


Edited: I think the reason most manufacturers released their second generation mirrorless system as full frame first rather than APC-S to replace DSLRs is due to landscape photographers preferring FF. As landscape photographers dont need great AF it worked well for the manufacturers as initially AF wasn’t great on mirrorless. Now AF has improved the sports/action cameras have started to appear. If canon would have released an APSC R7 with poor AF that would have been worse than not releasing one at all hence the delay.
 
rob-nikon said:
I’ve edited the original post (see below) to highlight I was talking about the currently available second generation mirrorless systems that will replace their DSLRs counterparts in reply to a discussion about recent APC-S mirrorless release.


Edited: I think the reason most manufacturers released their second generation mirrorless system as full frame first rather than APC-S to replace DSLRs is due to landscape photographers preferring FF. As landscape photographers dont need great AF it worked well for the manufacturers as initially AF wasn’t great on mirrorless. Now AF has improved the sports/action cameras have started to appear. If canon would have released an APSC R7 with poor AF that would have been worse than not releasing one at all hence the delay.
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It is reasonable to replace full frame with Full Frame.
And APS with APS.
The reasons are obvious.
 
alfbranch said:
Nikons first mirrorless interchangeable lens system now discontinued (I beleive) was not full frame.
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Nikon 1 ( 1 inch ) finally discontinued in July 2018 - just before the Nikon 2 or Nikon Z was introduced. Mostly belongs to the early 2010’s.

It is still my most used system because of the great fast AF system, the lens FL coverage from 18 to 810, and the OK ( for me IQ). Its so small its just pickup and go almost without thinking. Next most convenient think to a phone.

The bodies still robust but the lenses have a tendency to break ( aperture pinion fatigue and flex cable issues) - ie a big Nikon design fail. Mine are mostly repaired / refurbished by a repair shop in Taiwan.

I assume Nikon has learnt its lesson - at least my Z lenses seem OK so far.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
It is reasonable to replace full frame with Full Frame.
And APS with APS.
The reasons are obvious.
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It's strange but when I went from 35mm film to an aps-c Caonon DSLR I adapted quite quickly the only stumbling block being that I was baffled as to why 28mm want wide anymore but once I did some research on that and got over the disappointment I was ok. When I went from the aps-c 20D to the 5D it actually took me longer to adjust to the shallower DoF, stopping down for DoF and dealing with shutter speed and ISO issues. So, I can imagine people who've only ever used aps-c struggling for a while when getting a FF camera.
 
I've not read all the posts but my thoughts on the original question are that you have a lot of people already with DSLRs that are not willing to invest in a new system, and a lot of first time buyers who are on a strict budget and there are some cheap DSLRs that offer a better bang for buck over the mirrorless equivalents. That being said you can get cameras like the A6000 with kit lens that's a similar price to entry level DSLRs with kit lens (thinking the Canon 2000D and Nikon D3500)
 
alfbranch said:
Nikon and Canon budget DSLR's have awful viewfinders they are like looking through fog.
Give me an EVF anyday.
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No one is making you or even suggesting to buy awful entry level dslrs. Likewise an awful entry level model does not represent the whole line up so this point is null and void.
 
snerkler said:
I've not read all the posts but my thoughts on the original question are that you have a lot of people already with DSLRs that are not willing to invest in a new system, and a lot of first time buyers who are on a strict budget and there are some cheap DSLRs that offer a better bang for buck over the mirrorless equivalents. That being said you can get cameras like the A6000 with kit lens that's a similar price to entry level DSLRs with kit lens (thinking the Canon 2000D and Nikon D3500)
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I guess that’s where current Nikon and canon DSLR users will benefit from their previous DSLR lenses still being able to be adapted to the new canon and Nikon mirrorless cameras should they need to make the change in the future. A canon or Nikon DSLR user who’s not made the jump to mirrorless yet is probably unlikely to buy into a whole new system when they can just buy a mirrorless Nikon or canon if they have to and carry on using their current lenses. People new to photography are in a different boat and have the opportunity to choose a system and will likely go towards what’s the cheapest option.
 
rob-nikon said:
I guess that’s where current Nikon and canon DSLR users will benefit from their previous DSLR lenses still being able to be adapted to the new canon and Nikon mirrorless cameras should they need to make the change in the future. A canon or Nikon DSLR user who’s not made the jump to mirrorless yet is probably unlikely to buy into a whole new system when they can just buy a mirrorless Nikon or canon if they have to and carry on using their current lenses. People new to photography are in a different boat and have the opportunity to choose a system and will likely go towards what’s the cheapest option.
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Tell me what I'm supposed to do then considering I hate everything about the new canon RF system starting with extortionate pricing down to overheating and all I'm left with is the half decent option of adapting my lenses to uncomfortably small Sony bodies. Panasonic still hasn't figured out what autofocus is supposed to mean. The options are rather s*** before you get to Sony a1 and all new lenses
 
LongLensPhotography said:
Tell me what I'm supposed to do then considering I hate everything about the new canon RF system starting with extortionate pricing down to overheating and all I'm left with is the half decent option of adapting my lenses to uncomfortably small Sony bodies. Panasonic still hasn't figured out what autofocus is supposed to mean. The options are rather s*** before you get to Sony a1 and all new lenses
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I don’t know what you have now but can’t you stick with a Canon DSLR?
 
snerkler said:
I don’t know what you have now but can’t you stick with a Canon DSLR?
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Yes and no. 5d3 is great for interior work but at some point it will fail. Hopefully not any time soon. For video it's absolutely useless and I need something almost immediately. 5ds well is more hassle than asset; barely ever gets used
 
LongLensPhotography said:
Yes and no. 5d3 is great for interior work but at some point it will fail. Hopefully not any time soon. For video it's absolutely useless and I need something almost immediately. 5ds well is more hassle than asset; barely ever gets used
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Ahh ok, I don’t know Canon that well and video even less so if video’s a requirement then I guess mirrorless is a better option.

Personally I like the look of the Canon mirrorless and if it wasn’t for the lack of and expense of native lenses I could have considered moving from Sony. That being said Sony knocked it out of the park with the 70-200mm f2.8 GM 2 so maybe not.
 
LongLensPhotography said:
No one is making you or even suggesting to buy awful entry level dslrs. Likewise an awful entry level model does not represent the whole line up so this point is null and void.
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Read further up and some of the kit mentioned is what I refer to so not null and void.
 
LongLensPhotography said:
Tell me what I'm supposed to do then considering I hate everything about the new canon RF system starting with extortionate pricing down to overheating and all I'm left with is the half decent option of adapting my lenses to uncomfortably small Sony bodies. Panasonic still hasn't figured out what autofocus is supposed to mean. The options are rather s*** before you get to Sony a1 and all new lenses
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You could save money by buying some f8 or f11 lenses for Canon can't you.

The processing power is the issue with price and overheating when coupled to a big sensor.
Maybe explore more modest options that work.
 
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alfbranch said:
You could save money by buying some f8 or f11 lenses for Canon can't you.

The processing power is the issue with price and overheating when coupled to a big sensor.
Maybe explore more modest options that work.
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Thanks for listing another reason I hate new canons

I note that this doesn't notably affect any of the Sony's
 
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