Police and photographer clash, yet again.

welly said:
Have a read here.

http://www.privacyinternational.org...On Campaigns of Opposition to ID Card Schemes

and here

http://www.no2id.net/

and here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7441693.stm

If you can't see a privacy issue with regards to ID cards then I find that very worrying.
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Nope, don't see a privacy issue at all. Just a load of paranoid political pressure groups who are convinced everybody is spying on them personally. I have a driver's licence with my photograph, name, address and date of birth on it, I don't feel like my privacy has been invaded?
 
unfortunately welly, there is little you can do about the situation, if the terrorism law didnt exist, they would just use some other excuse to search you. the laws cant be too rigid otherwise they wouldnt work, hence why when asked to look in your bag they can arrest you if you refuse(i think) under breach of peace etc etc...

i cant see any reason you would have a problem being searched unless you have something to hide
 
Eric Mc said:
And heres one for you. Said man is stopped, an attack still happens close by,said man is not involved in any way. It is later disclosed that had the officers not stopped and searched a man taking photos of a footpath they would have arrived at the attackers location in time to possibly foil the attack. You lose a family member in the attack. How are your convictions now?
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Well that's just ridiculous. You stop one man and you have a chance, you stop no-one, you have no chance.
 
Eric Mc said:
And heres one for you. Said man is stopped, an attack still happens close by,said man is not involved in any way. It is later disclosed that had the officers not stopped and searched a man taking photos of a footpath they would have arrived at the attackers location in time to possibly foil the attack. You lose a family member in the attack. How are your convictions now?
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so now police are meant to be in 2 places at once? this could go on forever with the situations which i am not gonig to br dragged into. I was trying to portray that its better to be safe than sorry.
 
welly said:
Have a read here.

http://www.privacyinternational.org...On Campaigns of Opposition to ID Card Schemes

and here

http://www.no2id.net/

and here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7441693.stm

If you can't see a privacy issue with regards to ID cards then I find that very worrying.
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All I can see are two very on sided pieces of propaganda and a news report highlighting that the government are aware of the need not to invade privacy in the creation of ID cards.

What exactly do you think you'll need to give for an ID card that 'invades your privacy'?
 
Simmotino said:
All I can see are two very on sided pieces of propaganda and a news report highlighting that the government are aware of the need not to invade privacy in the creation of ID cards.

What exactly do you think you'll need to give for an ID card that 'invades your privacy'?
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Why do you describe them as "propaganda"? What do they have to gain from encouraging people to be aware and be concerned about ID cards? They have nothing to gain and everything to lose. It's not the information that is given but how it's used that is concerning. And given the government's track record of continuing to lose personal and private information held on USB memory sticks or discs on planes, trains and buses, I simply don't TRUST them to keep my personal information secure. I certainly don't feel like the government is going to single me out and spy on me, but the point is.. who and what are these ID cards for? They seem to be of absolutely no benefit whatsoever.
 
33L said:
so now police are meant to be in 2 places at once?
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No...just in the right place! If you really believe that most terrorists who want to plan an attack will do so in full view of the public, with a DSLR stuck to their face as apposed to grabbing a quick shot with a mobile phone you are at the very best naive
 
Simmotino said:
Ever actually stopped to think why they rarely happen? It's not as though the world is short of nut jobs looking to kill people, is it?

So why aren't there many here?
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It's not due to CCTV and certainly not down to the police stopping and searching random people on the street. How many terrorists have they caught through stopping and searching random photographer A, taking photos of a bike path?
 
welly said:
Why do you describe them as "propaganda"? What do they have to gain from encouraging people to be aware and be concerned about ID cards? They have nothing to gain and everything to lose. It's not the information that is given but how it's used that is concerning. And given the government's track record of continuing to lose personal and private information held on USB memory sticks or discs on planes, trains and buses, I simply don't TRUST them to keep my personal information secure. I certainly don't feel like the government is going to single me out and spy on me, but the point is.. who and what are these ID cards for? They seem to be of absolutely no benefit whatsoever.
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erm, the government already have all the info needed on you:thinking:
 
Security is a vicious issue, the police are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Also the security services have to be lucky all of the time and a terrorist needs to get lucky only once.

For that reason I would remain patient and cooperative if questioned by a 'proper' police officer, armed or not, in photo-taking circumstances although I would likely not extend the same courtesies if I was questioned by some attitude-riddled part-time plastic nodder:thumbsdown: with probably as much knowledge of the law as my cat's arse!

'Proper coppers' :police: are not perfect but they do their best and generally what they do is pretty good, but the plastic nodders whose day jobs are traffic wardens,....purlease!!!

Ok, Ok....:coat:
 
welly said:
Why do you describe them as "propaganda"? What do they have to gain from encouraging people to be aware and be concerned about ID cards? They have nothing to gain and everything to lose. It's not the information that is given but how it's used that is concerning. And given the government's track record of continuing to lose personal and private information held on USB memory sticks or discs on planes, trains and buses, I simply don't TRUST them to keep my personal information secure. I certainly don't feel like the government is going to single me out and spy on me, but the point is.. who and what are these ID cards for? They seem to be of absolutely no benefit whatsoever.
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Do you have a passport?
 
welly said:
It's not due to CCTV and certainly not down to the police stopping and searching random people on the street. How many terrorists have they caught through stopping and searching random photographer A, taking photos of a bike path?
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So if it's not happened before it can never happen? A police officers brief is to question ANYONE he/she believes may be acting suspiciously.
 
without reading the links(because im lazy) i would guess it would be to make sure all info is correct. i would guess your driving license would have more info on it or linked to it, but they dont want everyone to have a driving license. plus the information will all be stored on a new computer in a different location providing a few thousand jobs setting it up
 
Simmotino said:
Do you have a passport?
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Yes I do. And no, it's not the same thing. It's my understanding that the ID cards will go and be used much further than a passport. You're only asked to show your passport if you leave the country. You could potentially be stopped and asked to show your ID card.
 
fabs said:
A police officers brief is to question ANYONE he/she believes may be acting suspiciously.
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So your saying that ANYONE in a public place with a camera is fair game then?
 
welly said:
Yes I do. And no, it's not the same thing. It's my understanding that the ID cards will go and be used much further than a passport. You're only asked to show your passport if you leave the country. You could potentially be stopped and asked to show your ID card.
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Hang on, you were claiming a minute ago that the ID cards would be an invasion of your privacy. It appears you are basing this claim on your own supposition that you will need to present your ID card to police.

I take it you have never been stopped in a car before and been asked to provide your documents? Or applied for a mortgage? Or bought anything on credit?

Talk about scaremongering!
 
welly said:
Yes I do. And no, it's not the same thing. It's my understanding that the ID cards will go and be used much further than a passport. You're only asked to show your passport if you leave the country. You could potentially be stopped and asked to show your ID card.
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You can be asked for identification now. An ID card will make it easier.
 
fabs said:
I never mentioned the words "camera" or "fair game", but I did specify the phrase "Suspiciously". Please read my posts carefully. ;)
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OK I read your post carefully, so are you of the opinion that someone taking a photograph of a cycle path is acting suspiciously?
 
Simmotino said:
Hang on, you were claiming a minute ago that the ID cards would be an invasion of your privacy. It appears you are basing this claim on your own supposition that you will need to present your ID card to police.

I take it you have never been stopped in a car before and been asked to provide your documents? Or applied for a mortgage? Or bought anything on credit?

Talk about scaremongering!
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The difference is I chose to get a passport and a driving license. I chose to offer up this information. I wasn't FORCED into giving up my personal data. I could give up my driving license and move house, and not renew my passport whenever I choose. The data held by the passport agency and the DVLA would eventually be out of date. When the ID cards come into full effect, I will have absolutely no choice. It's an important difference.

I take it you have never been stopped in a car before and been asked to provide your documents? Or applied for a mortgage? Or bought anything on credit?
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Actually no to all those three things.
 
Eric Mc said:
No...just in the right place! If you really believe that most terrorists who want to plan an attack will do so in full view of the public, with a DSLR stuck to their face as apposed to grabbing a quick shot with a mobile phone you are at the very best naive
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so do terrorist identify themselves with a certain distinguisihing features? no! you, the police and i cannot tell who is a terrorist and who isn't. I am not saying every tog is a terrorist but the policemans brief is not to stop just DSLR users its to stop anyone that looks suspicious. They did this in this case and there was no reason for concern to take matters further and they didnt.

If it was a police state he would have been interrogated, equipment seized and then maybe let go. that to me is harrasment. The world is not perfect it will never be perfect. The sooner most people realise that the sooner people will understand measures like this.

Its just the same as getting stopped in your car for a breath test round christmas. Its got nothing to do with the driver or the car, but the circumstances when the driver was using his car. Some people get annoyed by it some get caught, for every 100 togs that are searched, if all those searches leads to 1 terror attack being prevented then let it continue.
 
welly said:
The difference is I chose to get a passport and a driving license. I chose to offer up this information. I wasn't FORCED into giving up my personal data. I could give up my driving license and move house, and not renew my passport whenever I choose. The data held by the passport agency and the DVLA would eventually be out of date. When the ID cards come into full effect, I will have absolutely no choice. It's an important difference.
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The passport holds as much information as the ID card, so what's your point exactly?
 
Eric Mc said:
No...just in the right place! If you really believe that most terrorists who want to plan an attack will do so in full view of the public, with a DSLR stuck to their face as apposed to grabbing a quick shot with a mobile phone you are at the very best naive
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There was no mention of a DSLR in the original news report, just that he was taking photographs. He could have been using his phone.
 
fabs said:
You can be asked for identification now. An ID card will make it easier.
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If I didn't have a driving license or a passport, what possible identification could I provide? People don't tend to carry around birth certificates.
 
welly said:
The difference is I chose to get a passport and a driving license. I chose to offer up this information. I wasn't FORCED into giving up my personal data. I could give up my driving license and move house, and not renew my passport whenever I choose. The data held by the passport agency and the DVLA would eventually be out of date. When the ID cards come into full effect, I will have absolutely no choice. It's an important difference.



Actually no to all those three things.
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So when it comes down to it, you're scared that the government have your home address?
 
33L said:
...for every 100 togs that are searched, if all those searches leads to 1 terror attack being prevented then let it continue.
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Even if they don't, let it continue. I would much rather the police were out there doing their job than having to spend all their time sat in their cars or behind desks for fear of infringing on some precious little scrotes 'civil liberites'.
 
passports are now biometric - or at least mine is so the information will be the same
 
Simmotino said:
The passport holds as much information as the ID card, so what's your point exactly?
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My point is (again):

1. I chose to get a passport and a driving license. I chose to offer up this information. I wasn't FORCED into giving up my personal data.

2. I could give up my driving license and move house, and not renew my passport whenever I choose. The data held by the passport agency and the DVLA would eventually be out of date.

3. When the ID cards come into full effect, I will have absolutely no choice. It's an important difference.

It's a matter of rights, freedoms and choice. I don't have to get a passport and don't have to get a driving license. I WILL have to get an ID card.
 
welly said:
My point is (again):

1. I chose to get a passport and a driving license. I chose to offer up this information. I wasn't FORCED into giving up my personal data.

2. I could give up my driving license and move house, and not renew my passport whenever I choose. The data held by the passport agency and the DVLA would eventually be out of date.

3. When the ID cards come into full effect, I will have absolutely no choice. It's an important difference.

It's a matter of rights, freedoms and choice. I don't have to get a passport and don't have to get a driving license. I WILL have to get an ID card.
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Right, which will involve you providing the government with information they already have anyway.

So how is that an invasion of privacy again?
 
fabs said:
I never mentioned the words "camera" or "fair game", but I did specify the phrase "Suspiciously". Please read my posts carefully. ;)
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The person was stopped because he was taking photos of a footpath! If you know of any other way of doing that without using a camera of some sort perhaps you'd care to enlighten us:shrug: If he had just been walking the footpath he wouldn't have drawn the attention of the police.....hence the camera is what made him act "Suspiciously" in their eyes. I'll rephrase my question a little for you shall I?

Are you saying that anyone who is in a public place should be seen as acting suspiciously by the police..and thus stopped and searched under the terrorism act?
 
Simmotino said:
Right, which will involve you providing the government with information they already have anyway.

So how is that an invasion of privacy again?
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We're going round in circles here. Because I will be FORCED to get an ID card.
 
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