What is it with Parents scowling at photographers?

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Furtim said:
It's this kind of blanket view that taking a photo of a child is in someway attacking them that I just don't get...
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I don't get it either. What possible perverted use can someone get from a photo of a fully clothed child playing in a public park (or wherever)?


Furtim said:
although they're all a bit big now to be playing with balloons now.
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No one is too big to enjoy playing with balloons!


Steve.
 
Zuba said:
Its not your job to decide if any parent is an abuser is it? Yet as a parent it is my job to decide if a photographer who is taking pictures of my child is a pervert, I would air on the side of caution and say that togs all are when it comes to my child rather than no one is and let just one pervert slip through the net. That is my opinion I am entitled to it, you can continue to justify why you are allowed to take pictures of children, but you seem on the defensive over this one, why would you want to take pictures of someone's child without permission???
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Never said I take pictures of children but you assume all togs are perverts and you have just bought a DSLR. With your attitude you are going to upset alot of people on this forum.
 
Zuba said:
I have to say I wouldn't like random people taking pictures of my child, is it that hard to ask for consent, explain what you are doing before hand? I think if they were in a performance or a display or dressed up for something then I would be more lenient however if I am out and about with my child and we are relaxing and doing normal stuff and someone started taking pics I'd be quite angry about it. In fact they catch me on the wrong day of the month they'd be liable to have a camera rammed somewhere unpleasant ;) How do we as parents know which photographers are the good ones and which are perverts? The fact is we dont know and no pervert is going to confess they are so we have to assume that, unless you ask us and explain why you want a few pics, you could be using our childrens pictures in anyway imaginable and it doesn't necessarily have to be in a perverted way, you could do anything at all with the pictures on your cameras and we will never know what has been done.

My child is the most precious thing in the world to me and I will protect him in any way imaginable and if that makes me a b*tch or an idiot or whatever else you have in mind then so be it.
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So if they came over and asked then they must not be a pervert ?

I do not understand why people see the need to "protect" their child from someone with a camera.

If you saw someone (without a camera) looking at you and your child would you tell them to stop looking ?

When I'm out with my daughter, I often see other kids playing and you can't help looking at them and smiling - its so wonderful.
Its a shame so many great photo opportunities are missed because of the "p****" brigade.
 
Zuba said:
Its not your job to decide if any parent is an abuser is it? Yet as a parent it is my job to decide if a photographer who is taking pictures of my child is a pervert, I would air on the side of caution and say that togs all are when it comes to my child rather than no one is and let just one pervert slip through the net. That is my opinion I am entitled to it, you can continue to justify why you are allowed to take pictures of children, but you seem on the defensive over this one, why would you want to take pictures of someone's child without permission???
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I don't- but why can't you respect my right to take photos, and be a bloke with a camera without being a pervet?

Incidently its not your job - that would be one for the police

Hugh
 
i can see most sides of the coin here it is a hard one i have to say. i have read this thread with interest as i have taken pic's of kid's in a parade and on sports fields am i in the wrong?? if a parent was to ask me to stop would i? are they going to ask every other tog there to stop. i will say my kids have been in the parade or on the sports field and there have been many other togs there, i would never dream of asking them to stop. most recentley i took rather a lot of rugby pic's and then found my son's face plastered all over the internet and the local newspapers none of the pic's were mine...was i annoyed NOPE i was chuffed to bits that thos togs thought he was playing well enough to bother with him..

But on the other hand had it bee as said in another post someone following my kids in a park then i would have a polite word just to find out why.

It was getting caught taking a sneaky pic of some tanks ect in cattrick that got me in hot water.
 
Zuba said:
Its not your job to decide if any parent is an abuser is it? Yet as a parent it is my job to decide if a photographer who is taking pictures of my child is a pervert, I would air on the side of caution and say that togs all are when it comes to my child rather than no one is and let just one pervert slip through the net. That is my opinion I am entitled to it, you can continue to justify why you are allowed to take pictures of children, but you seem on the defensive over this one, why would you want to take pictures of someone's child without permission???
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Come on, don't start slinging mud around, be it insinuated or real. The real problem is if you really believe what you are saying, and I believe you do, it may start to influence your friends, who in turn spread the view to their friends and before you know it, we have a wide spread view based on misconceptions and prejudice.

The youngest of my three is now in year 5 of school and I don't have a single photo of him at any school event - nativity play, sports day, etc, because of the ignorant attitudes spread on this matter.

My eldest child is in year 10 and I do have photo's of him during his school plays from when he was just starting school. My youngest considers it very unfair that he has nothing to look back on.

Be very careful with what you start. Pretty soon, your own freedom to photograph your own child will be restricted simply because the kids of other people who share your view would rather view you as a 'pervert' than a parent.
 
Zuba said:
Its not your job to decide if any parent is an abuser is it? Yet as a parent it is my job to decide if a photographer who is taking pictures of my child is a pervert, I would air on the side of caution and say that togs all are when it comes to my child rather than no one is and let just one pervert slip through the net. That is my opinion I am entitled to it, you can continue to justify why you are allowed to take pictures of children, but you seem on the defensive over this one, why would you want to take pictures of someone's child without permission???
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I rather doubt Perverts ever take pictures of children in public places... It would hardly go with the image, or their needs.

Permission is never needed to legally take photographs in a public place.

And why would one want to take a photo of a child ... permission or not?
Simply because it can make excellent photographs of life today, and carry forward a long tradition.
 
I'm really torn on this one - hence I have not made any comment.

I'm pretty protective of my boys, maybe it's part of the brainwashed paranoia that society has now adopted. Anyway, I would be suspicious of a togger snapping my little 'uns, unless there was some obvious reason - ie they were in a public parade / show etc, or if when I looked to see what they were doing it was something which I would deem a worthy photo. that being one that would make a good image regardless of which child was there.....If that makes sense.

the problem with asking permission prior to taking a shot, is that once you have done that, the shot is invariably gone. the subjects are aware of your presence, and with most candid shots, the facial expressions and general mannerisms are what make the image - Once anybody is aware of a camera, that all changes.

It's a little bit like saying, before you take a picture of a bubble, you have to stick your finger through it.
 
My child is 7 and I have photos of everything he does at school. Including assemblies, sports day, plays and even days when they have grandparents day when the grandparents go in for the afternoon.

Never has the head even mentioned photography.

We sign a form at the beginning of each term to give permission of any photos taken to be published in the paper or website etc.

If we will not give permission then that child is excluded from the activity thus not spoiling it for the majority.

As for taking pics of kids I am wary and don't really do it.

I would be concerned if someone was taking photos of my boy in a park and would let them be aware I was watching.

In fact this did happen once and I took a photo of the man. We had a chat and all was good.
 
Steve Smith said:
you don't, but you need to apply some logical thought to it.

How many people you pass when you walk down the street are murderers who plan to kill you? Well, it's been none so far. Assuming all photographers might be perverts is the sdame as assuming that everyone you see in public is likely to be a murderer or a rapist or a burglar just because you don't know for sure that they are not.

The percentage of photographers who are actually perverts is so miniscule as to be irrelevant.

Even if someone does take a photograph of, for instance, one of my children and uses it for whatever purpose he wants (though I can't really think of one). So what? I don't know about it and it doesn't harm my child. I can't think of a way that a photograph taken of one of my children when out in public could be:

1. Of any interest to a pevert;
2. Possible to cause any harm.


EDIT: I'm not trying to justify perverted behaviour here, I'm just trying to post an opposite view to the usual paranoa.



Steve.
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I agree.

Certain feminists used to assume that all men were rapists. Perhaps they still do.

Soon we'll need a licence to own a camera.
 
KIPAX said:
The only paranoia i can see is from photographers in this thread.. you see her face on that picture.. you have no idea what she is thinking.. but you have a 5 page thread where you are all up in arms because you have decided she is calling you a pedophile or a pervert or whatever.. then to top it all you use a public forum to insult the women.

Quite disgusted to be honest...
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I can't tell you what she was thinking, but in the few seconds from composing the shot to having taken two shots, I can assure you her face changed from carefree, to the look she had on her face in the shot above.

As for the p*** pervert slant of the thread, iirc it was you who set the thread on that course.
 
Zuba said:
Secondly why can't you respect my right to protect my children and their images?
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Despite you keep saying that is all you want to do that right does not exist - any images taken of them are not their images, the images belong to the photographer



Zuba said:
Like it or not the world we live in is changing, my children are not as free to do what they want as I was just 15 years ago, its not my fault its changing, I wish it wasn't, I wish my toddler could go and play in the park outside my front door with me watching from the window but thats not the way it is anymore.
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Is that actually the case or is it more freely pubicised when bad things happen?
 
It doesn't matter if you are male or female firstly.
Secondly why can't you respect my right to protect my children and their images?
Thirdly if you took a spur of the moment picture and then came to me and said that you have taken this picture its a really nice shot, yada yada, maybe would you like a copy sent to you via email or it will be posted on photo bucket or where ever else, I would be less inclined to confront you about it and then you are also giving me the option to decide what kind of person you are and whether I'm happy for you to take pictures before I have to confront you and ask you why are you taking snaps of my child and why would you want pictures of my child.
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If you came up to me I'd tell you.

I take pictures to sell. Generally people are grateful that I got a nice shot of them or their kid, and are happy to pay for them. I've sold a few from this set already.

For the record scowling parent shots normally go straight in the recycle bin. If you want to give me the look, then you are not going to get the option to buy a decent picture of your kid. I don't need your money. I only posted this picture to prove a point.
 
Zuba said:
Its not your job to decide if any parent is an abuser is it? Yet as a parent it is my job to decide if a photographer who is taking pictures of my child is a pervert,
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In what way is it your job to decide if a photographer is a pervert?, are you a Psychologist or a Psychiatrist? or a Doctor of medicine perhaps. How will you determine whether he's a harmless photographer or a sexual preditor? do you have a pervert detector? do they wear different shirts to the rest of us? Do tell?
It's this attitude combined with media hype thats caused this problem in the first place. 25 years ago I worked for a newspaper, I must have covered dozens of carnivals, parades etc, nobody ever gave me a second look taking pictures of the children on the carnaval floats, I wasn't carrying a "press" sign, other people were taking pics too, nobody was worried, why, because we were only taking photos, that doesn't actually hurt anybody.
I understand your protecting your children, fair enough, but how is a photo going to hurt them, lets keep this in perspctive. Wayne
 
Zuba said:
I don't understand why you couldn't take snaps at your sons school activities that is one place i would expect to find parents with cameras, so trying to blame me for spreading my influence around is just wrong, who is slinging mud now?
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I don't know how old your children are, perhaps they are not at school yet, or they are at one of the more enlightened schools.

The problem is that cameras are banned from many school performances now precisely because of the attitude you are espousing.

Like it or not the world we live in is changing, my children are not as free to do what they want as I was just 15 years ago, its not my fault its changing, I wish it wasn't, I wish my toddler could go and play in the park outside my front door with me watching from the window but thats not the way it is anymore.
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I don't think that's true - someone published an article a year or so ago to support the view that there is significantly less crime against children (from adults) now than there was 30 years ago.

However, the longer we continue to moddy coddle our kids, the less prepared they will be to deal with anything life may throw at them later. This weekend, my three kids are all going away (Yipeee!). They will all spend the weekend in a field, playing with axes and knives, setting fire to things and walking for miles and miles in the complete dark without any adult supervision. During this, my eleven year old will be responsible for the welfare of six younger kids, and he will be expected to cook a full roast chicken meal over an open fire.

Hopefully they will have fun, and hopefully the will learn something. They have to take risks and we need that in today's society. You can't be there for your kid 100% of the time, so start planning for it now. (Now seriously off topic!)
 
swanseamale47 said:
In what way is it your job to decide if a photographer is a pervert?, are you a Psychologist or a Psychiatrist? or a Doctor of medicine perhaps. How will you determine whether he's a harmless photographer or a sexual preditor? do you have a pervert detector? do they wear different shirts to the rest of us? Do tell?
It's this attitude combined with media hype thats caused this problem in the first place. 25 years ago I worked for a newspaper, I must have covered dozens of carnivals, parades etc, nobody ever gave me a second look taking pictures of the children on the carnaval floats, I wasn't carrying a "press" sign, other people were taking pics too, nobody was worried, why, because we were only taking photos, that doesn't actually hurt anybody.
I understand your protecting your children, fair enough, but how is a photo going to hurt them, lets keep this in perspctive. Wayne
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Spot on Wayne, couldn't have put it better myself.
 
Wow

I never really given this much consideration, I supose because I'm not really into taking pictures of kids, but I can see why its a contentious issue and the reason in my mind is because people are media brainwashed to believe that every man is a peadophile and its becoming that every man needs to check his behaviour to such an extent that they can't act naturally in a public place.

One a week or so ago I was walking in the park and a 4 year old (no parents with in 20yrds) fell over at my feet and I thought twice before I helped them up, I actually (with a crying child in front of me) did a 360 turn not to make sure not that no one was watching but that someone was actually watching and only then did I help the child up and only by the hands. I did not brush them down I did not touch them I waited until their parent came running over, and do you know what their reaction was?





They tut'ed at me



WTF?




I'm a policed checked youth worker and I'm a police checked full time careers advisor working 1 to 1 with 14-19 year olds and in a public park I'm watching my every move to make sure I'm not seen as p****.

I'm sure peadophiles are out there, children are molested every day but and this is a big but in the majority of cases its by someone they know and not by someone in a park with a camera, thats not grooming, thats photography and some one in the media needs to get a grip and explain this!

If your a parent whos fear of anyone taking a photo of your children outweighs your/ their enjoyment then don't enter them in to public events/ school plays thats my suggestion, if someone takes a shot of your child outside of these circumstances then maybe you have a right to ask them what they are going to do with it.

Sorry this kind of thing drives me crazy, we expend all the energy 'protecting' children and not actually educating them to look after themselves :/

MB
 
Furtim said:
This weekend, my three kids are all going away (Yipeee!). They will all spend the weekend in a field, playing with axes and knives, setting fire to things and walking for miles and miles in the complete dark without any adult supervision. During this, my eleven year old will be responsible for the welfare of six younger kids, and he will be expected to cook a full roast chicken meal over an open fire.

Hopefully they will have fun, and hopefully the will learn something. They have to take risks and we need that in today's society. You can't be there for your kid 100% of the time, so start planning for it now. (Now seriously off topic!)
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This sounds fabulous. Do you think they would notice one extra? Would do my 8yo the world of good.
 
Like it or not the world we live in is changing, my children are not as free to do what they want as I was just 15 years ago, its not my fault its changing, I wish it wasn't, I wish my toddler could go and play in the park outside my front door with me watching from the window but thats not the way it is anymore.
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I love this attitude actually. It means that a large proportion of my children's generation will grow up being unable to make decisions for themselves having had that responsibility taken away from them by their parents fearful of the bogeyman.

This of course will mean that my children having learned from an early age to learn how to take care and make decisions for themselves will have a distinct advantage in the grown up world we live in.
 
Zuba said:
Its not your job to decide if any parent is an abuser is it? Yet as a parent it is my job to decide if a photographer who is taking pictures of my child is a pervert, I would air on the side of caution and say that togs all are when it comes to my child rather than no one is and let just one pervert slip through the net. That is my opinion I am entitled to it, you can continue to justify why you are allowed to take pictures of children, but you seem on the defensive over this one, why would you want to take pictures of someone's child without permission???
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Not that I make a habit of taking photos of random children, but I've got to say that if I was in public and had the opportunity to get a great photo of children at play that I felt was interesting then I'd grab that opportunity. Just the same as I would do if I saw a middle aged man or an OAP doing something that made a great photo opportunity. I've got to say, to assume that every photographer is a pervert isn't any way to carry on through life. Do you suspect every person in a shell suit is a burglar?
 
Zuba said:
Secondly why can't you respect my right to protect my children and their images?
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do you mind me asking why when this is an issue you feel strongly about you posted images on here of your little boy for C & C. I would of thought that in doing so, and by using him as a model you have no control over where the images wind up?

Hugh
 
Crocky said:
This sounds fabulous. Do you think they would notice one extra? Would do my 8yo the world of good.
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That's scouts for you - never did it myself, but my wife runs the Beaver scouts section of the local group. Our kids have all done it from aged 6 upwards and I must say really impressed at what it does for them.

Earlier this year by eldest, then 14, was dropped off late one evening in the middle on nowhere. Then in groups of 4 they had to navigate to a point on a map 25 miles away within 24 hours with only a map and a compass. Very proud of him :)

Funnily enough, when it came to the pickup, the designated point was a dark lay-by off some long forgotten B road. A group of mainly middle aged couples milling around in a dark lay-by in the dead of night certainly drew some suspicious looks from passing drivers. We all had our excuses ready for when the local rossers arrived!
 
Now i have a view point from many angles on this.
Im a photographer although i would love to capture art type shots of children enjoying themselves and taking a snap shot of social history. I don't simply as i don't take many pics period, of any subject.

I have 5 children / 3 of which are step children.
Aged 10 to 20.

I see many great pictures of children that are highly regarded.

Now for the most part children in public play areas are well covered and as such should not be such a taboo subject.

I can understand 1 or 2 shots of capturing children in play or even sulking basically mood shots.

I would not expect my children to be stalked and would have words.

Lets get something pointed out here the real sicko's have access to much more revealing material on the net than a couple of shots in a park surrounded by understandably protective parents.

The things that make these sicko's sick is what they want to do and what they want to view.

The sicko's will not i imagine buy a photography book of children.

They would seek to feed there depravity from other mediums.

I have a word of warning for the photographer, you would be amazed at the things that can be levelled at you with no proof what so ever.

This is especially true of the teenager fraternity.
It only takes a few words of total lies to see you been formally interviewed and you will be amazed at how far the police can take things. You would certainly need your family's support.

I will not elaborate further just be aware a crowded area of protective parents can actually vouch for you if one takes exception but that could go the other way.

We are all entitled to our own personal views but by the nature of this site we take pictures and that covers a very broad area and as such perhaps a bit better understanding of a persons artistic view point.

I cannot see a sicko forking out a fortune on camera equipment when they can feed there depravity from cheaper means.

Perhaps a bit more than my 2 pence worth there but its said and i cannot see my message causing offence its just informative i feel but i may be wrong.

All the best and lets play nice, Please!!!!
 
Zuba said:
You have answered your own question, I cant tell so that is why i'd rather no one took pictures of my child unless I have given them my permission, why is that so hard to understand?? And photos can end up anywhere be photoshopped, etc and as has been said they belong to the person who took them not to the subjects in them, so if someone photoshopped a snap of my child in a way I didn't like there is naff all I can do about it after the fact, if I stop it from happening in the first instance I will never have to come across a picture of my child that I dont like for whatever reason.

As for the woman in the picture, she may have an opinion like mine or she may be annoyed because you caught her in your snap lots of adults dont like their picture being taken either.

And I think the reason less things are happening to children now days is because parents are more aware of things that can happen, that is caused by media, if most things didn't hit the headlines no one would no a thing about them.
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Less things are not happening to children though. the reason that we have so many overweight children in this country is due to the fact that parents are so scared to let them out to play due to the media headlines.
I am sure that things were the same as when I grew up but people had common sense back then, today with health and safety rubbish children are not allowed to be children anymore. I used to go out and play nearly all day in the New Forest when were down on Holiday and nothing ever happened to me, I used to pop back a few times during the day and that was it.
 
And I think the reason less things are happening to children now days is because parents are more aware of things that can happen, that is caused by media, if most things didn't hit the headlines no one would no a thing about them.
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The media prints what will sell papers, or get high viewing figures.

Someones bicycle being stolen, the bins not being emptied last week will not sell , as it's nothing new. Media requires sharp edged stories. The gorier, the scarier the better. This sell copy.

These crimes make up a tiny proportion of crimes, and I would guess that I've as much chance of winning the lottery as someone doing similar to my family.

Is my GP going to kill my Mum? No

Are my children going to be abducted the moment I look away? No

etc.
 
Zuba said:
You have answered your own question, I cant tell so that is why i'd rather no one took pictures of my child unless I have given them my permission, why is that so hard to understand??
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Unfortunately you don't have that right to give permission or otherwise.
 
Zuba said:
Actually there are strict laws, licenses and contracts to child modeling. Images on baby wear, pampers, johnsons, next, etc are under strict regulations and criteria for example images can only be used for a year from the date and if used for longer it has to be paid for and contracted. The images I posted on here are my own and anyone using them can be bought to justice. I have no control over a picture that say you took as it is your image and you have the copyright.
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I'm not sure how all this would make any difference to the paedos out there.
 
Matblack said:
Wow

I never really given this much consideration, I supose because I'm not really into taking pictures of kids, but I can see why its a contentious issue and the reason in my mind is because people are media brainwashed to believe that every man is a peadophile and its becoming that every man needs to check his behaviour to such an extent that they can't act naturally in a public place.

One a week or so ago I was walking in the park and a 4 year old (no parents with in 20yrds) fell over at my feet and I thought twice before I helped them up, I actually (with a crying child in front of me) did a 360 turn not to make sure not that no one was watching but that someone was actually watching and only then did I help the child up and only by the hands. I did not brush them down I did not touch them I waited until their parent came running over, and do you know what their reaction was?





They tut'ed at me



WTF?




I'm a policed checked youth worker and I'm a police checked full time careers advisor working 1 to 1 with 14-19 year olds and in a public park I'm watching my every move to make sure I'm not seen as p****.

I'm sure peadophiles are out there, children are molested every day but and this is a big but in the majority of cases its by someone they know and not by someone in a park with a camera, thats not grooming, thats photography and some one in the media needs to get a grip and explain this!

If your a parent whos fear of anyone taking a photo of your children outweighs your/ their enjoyment then don't enter them in to public events/ school plays thats my suggestion, if someone takes a shot of your child outside of these circumstances then maybe you have a right to ask them what they are going to do with it.

Sorry this kind of thing drives me crazy, we expend all the energy 'protecting' children and not actually educating them to look after themselves :/

MB
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I'm CRB checked for working with children/vulnerable people. I am specifically instructed by the legal division of my organisation that if at an event we see a unattended or crying child we must not touch the child to offer reassurance only seek to detain the child by voice whilst calling for assistance

In my experience this only upsets the child more especially when they come towards you with their arms outstretched and I have to back off.

Only way around it is by working in pairs to act as witnesses.

Furtim said:
That's scouts for you - never did it myself, but my wife runs the Beaver scouts section of the local group. Our kids have all done it from aged 6 upwards and I must say really impressed at what it does for them.

Earlier this year by eldest, then 14, was dropped off late one evening in the middle on nowhere. Then in groups of 4 they had to navigate to a point on a map 25 miles away within 24 hours with only a map and a compass. Very proud of him :)

Funnily enough, when it came to the pickup, the designated point was a dark lay-by off some long forgotten B road. A group of mainly middle aged couples milling around in a dark lay-by in the dead of night certainly drew some suspicious looks from passing drivers. We all had our excuses ready for when the local rossers arrived!
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Drove my first car aged 9 at a cub camp in a farmers field, ah those were the days:)
 
Zuba said:
Actually there are strict laws, licenses and contracts to child modeling. Images on baby wear, pampers, johnsons, next, etc are under strict regulations and criteria for example images can only be used for a year from the date and if used for longer it has to be paid for and contracted. The images I posted on here are my own and anyone using them can be bought to justice. I have no control over a picture that say you took as it is your image and you have the copyright.

This is getting a bit much now, I dont see why I have to defend my opinion from any of you, you want to know why, I answered, its my opinion not everyones and the more you dig at me and be rude the more I know I am making the right decision because the attitude of some of you is terrible, I didn't have children so you could all take pictures of them, you may think you have the right thats up to you, I am new to photography but I would stand by my opinion and therefore wouldn't take pictures of any other children without permission. That is my view call me what you like, I know more than you think about this subject and if you want I'll tell all but its not pretty and I'd rather not share my private life with strangers either.
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you don't have to defend it - but I want to understand - assuming tharts OK??? You didn't read any of my previous posts I don't want to take pictures of other peoples children unless they pay me, but I won't hold back from taking pictures of my children because yours are in frame. ETA for the record I'm CRB checked also

Why is OK to call me a pervert?The point I was making about online images wasn't about copyright infringment, but whoever posts them, as soon as thats done the whole world has access to them.
Hugh
 
Zuba said:
Actually there are strict laws, licenses and contracts to child modeling. Images on baby wear, pampers, johnsons, next, etc are under strict regulations and criteria for example images can only be used for a year from the date and if used for longer it has to be paid for and contracted. The images I posted on here are my own and anyone using them can be bought to justice. I have no control over a picture that say you took as it is your image and you have the copyright.
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But Zuba, how will people be brought to justice if you don't now that those people have copied your image and used it?
 
Zuba said:
The images I posted on here are my own and anyone using them can be bought to justice. I have no control over a picture that say you took as it is your image and you have the copyright.
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And how exactly do you think they will be brought to justice.

Are you going to search the hard drive of every PC in the world to check and see if your images have been copied. No one is going to ask you if they can take a copy they will just do it.

You will be none the wiser.
 
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