Beginner How to start reading photos to make good critiques?

Ed Sutton said:
It's not a league table, but if you can't accept some photograph is rubbish then you might as well stop joining in these discussions.
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My opinion is like all other opinions and just as valid or invalid as those of others.
Ed Sutton said:
But it doesn't have to be an order as to what they have to do.
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On that we agree.
Ed Sutton said:
Sure it can be used to make art, but photography is a medium in the same way paint and clay are.
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Again. I agree with you.
Ed Sutton said:
The only way to critique photographs in a meaningful way is within the context they were made and the purpose they serve.
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And once again we agree.
Ed Sutton said:
Looked at that way then there ARE good and bad photographs.
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Perhaps it would be better to think in terms of a photo meeting a particular requirement, as stated by one or more "customers"?
 
People have mentioned there's little crit' here, a lot of images are in crit' sub-forums, if you think that something could be 'improved', even if no one is asking, may be try starting the conversation on the image..?

Some people do :dummy:so I can see why it's dropped... some offer 'crit' and never show their own work too..

But... I've learnt loads here from people 'bashing' and talking about my images!
 
Gav. said:
But... I've learnt loads here from people 'bashing' and talking about my images!
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me too - what was the guy called "Brash"? (and his shoot-outs with Dennis the Little Owl guy - which I think eventually got him banned and Denis just flew away - pity for both and maybe us all! - but Brash was OTT for many) - he used to semi-destroy my early bird images, which I did not mind as they were poor/terrible, but with his comments I improved, (IMHO), quickly to a level that I was happy with and caused me to really enjoy bird photography.
 
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JohnN said:
Sometimes, often maybe, but when delivered without thought or care can be very destructive.
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Personally I just don't take it that seriously to be that offended - too many other things to worry about - photography is just a very enjoyable hobby for me, and I think most people - if it's not then maybe their sensitivity is hurt and offended, (which in the present day is something that we must no do) - but minority these days appears to be used for the majority

These days I seldom post images as individual threads - I tend to just post in the communal "Show us your ..............." - not because I don't want criticism, but because it's a lot easier!
 
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Gav. said:
People have mentioned there's little crit' here, a lot of images are in crit' sub-forums, if you think that something could be 'improved', even if no one is asking, may be try starting the conversation on the image..?

Some people do :dummy:so I can see why it's dropped... some offer 'crit' and never show their own work too..

But... I've learnt loads here from people 'bashing' and talking about my images!
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Bashing isn't constructive, but what it needs is more conversation about photographs. Less comments like 'well seeen', 'great photo' and more comments that describe the photo and make some sort of interpretation before making a judgement, maybe it includes some references. to other photographers or art/photo theory - but not always necessary. Critique shouldn't be about personal preferences either and this is one of the misconceptions that people have. This all takes practice from the photographer and the people giving the critique.

I also don't think the person offering the cric needs to show their work either - if they explain their thoughts, their description of the photo, provide reference details, etc.. then it doesn't matter because you can see their 'workings out'. Is someone is saying they think the photo is rubbish but can't explain why, then their opinion isn't informed. Someone who can explain in depth their view and reasons why, they might have a more informed opinion. Of course it's up the photographer to decide what they take on board or disregard, but an open mind on their part is crucial
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
"in denial of" is a loaded phrase, because, in this context, it implies someone's opinion is of less value than your own.

That phrase is exactly where we disagree. In my world, there are pictures which impress me, pictures which don't impress me and pictures which I actively dislike. The difference between us is that you imply the existence of absolute standards, whereas I consider the appreciation or otherwise of any art to be purely subjective,

You imply such in the statement I quoted above, beginning "there is good, mediocre..."

And you reinforce the implication in that statement.

I don't understand how you get from my comment, on the history of art in the Soviet Union and the Nazi state, to a "conspiracy theory"... :thinking:
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Lol, unbelievable. :facepalm: I've never come across anyone who so strongly believes and defends that there are no standards, it's all subjective. By the way, you ignored part of an earlier post of mine where I quoted one of the world's best known street photographers who is famous for having said "99% of street photography is failure." But in your world there's no good or bad, so presumably there's no failure and he must be wrong.

Ed Sutton made a very good point in response to you saying there's no good or bad:

"That attitude promotes a race to the bottom where nobody strives to improve, because what they already make is good enough for them. Of course if an individual is happy carrying on that way that's fine. If everyone acts in that way then culture is f***ed."
 
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benc98 said:
... Critique shouldn't be about personal preferences either and this is one of the misconceptions that people have. ...
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I don't think that offering comments based on personal preferences is necessarily bad, just that where you do give such a comment, you should indicate that's what it is - so rather than saying (for example) "The image is too dark", saying "I personally feel the image is rather dark, though this is a somewhat subjective view".
 
Faldrax said:
I don't think that offering comments based on personal preferences is necessarily bad, just that where you do give such a comment, you should indicate that's what it is - so rather than saying (for example) "The image is too dark", saying "I personally feel the image is rather dark, though this is a somewhat subjective view".
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"I think I would have shot slightly lower to hide the fence" vs "that fence in the midground looks sh¹t" :)

It's also nice to start with an "If it were my photo......" because that's more inclined to provoke thoughts and insight into how another would approach and see a scene.
 
I think there's a stance outside of the absolutism of "everything's subjective".

From a musical perspective, I've never liked Pink Floyd. They've never clicked with me in the slightest. I can however recognise that musically they're incredible from a technical and emotive perspective. They're just something that's never quite clicked with me.

A random bloke on the internet smacking a cardboard box without rhythm would be equally valid musically if everything is subjective but if you look at it with a degree of nuance, that's not really true. If you think the random cardboard box beater is musically as deserving as a great band, regardless of individual taste, then you're not playing on an even field.

Same with photography. There are photographers who are renowned who do absolutely nothing for me yet I can still admire the skill and/or art in what they do.

I can also subjectively and objectively look at the 200 photos I bring back from a walk and find about 10% of them to be even worth a second look.

I don't think that's a suppression of thought or artistic intent, I think that's being robust enough to know you can improve at something while using the connection to art you do love to spark that improvement.
 
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Faldrax said:
rather than saying (for example) "The image is too dark", saying "I personally feel the image is rather dark, though this is a somewhat subjective view".
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I think that depends. Yes for some photos it could have been an artistic decision to make something darker. But even then, an experienced eye can help advise whether that decision works well or not.

But there are also pictures where it's an obvious flaw in the exposure or post processing that makes the photo suffer and in those cases I think it's fine not to sugarcoat it and to say "Good picture but it's too dark". The recipient shouldn't take it personally and will improve faster by remembering the next time to consider the overall exposure.
 
Merlin5 said:
I think that depends. Yes for some photos it could have been an artistic decision to make something darker. But even then, an experienced eye can help advise whether that decision works well or not.

But there are also pictures where it's an obvious flaw in the exposure or post processing that makes the photo suffer and in those cases I think it's fine not to sugarcoat it and to say "Good picture but it's too dark". The recipient shouldn't take it personally and will improve faster by remembering the next time to consider the overall exposure.
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Yes, I'd agree - it was more a quick example of how something could be worded to indicate a personal preference, rather than an absolute on a specific aspect of a photo.

It has highlighted that a given 'flaw' can be in some cases a subjective artistic decision, and others an indication of a technical issue, and that how you word any critique needs to be mindful of the two possibilities.
 
Lee, thats fair, but always remember something - you are replying with text only - neither party know how the written words were intended, take "This picture is really something else" for example, granted thats not useful whichever way its taken, but hopefully you get the point.
 
JohnN said:
Lee, thats fair, but always remember something - you are replying with text only - neither party know how the written words were intended, take "This picture is really something else" for example, granted thats not useful whichever way its taken, but hopefully you get the point.
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Agreed. I think it's also helpful to balance a critique with good points/compliment as well as the bad. Example, "I can see what you were going for, excellent idea and your framing is well executed. However, the left side is too dark, your edges are not clean and the subject matter didn't turn out to be interesting enough". Of course, there are some photos that simply have no redeeming qualities at all! :p

Some people will invariably take it personally even though there are positives in the critique, but anyone who is a bit more serious about improving will take it onboard. I used to get some BRUTALLY harsh critique on a particularly notorious critique forum I'm a member of, with some proper street experts there. They took no prisoners. Some photographers used to fight back and leave, they couldn't take it. I didn't get defensive and fight back, I took it all on the chin because I respected the people critiquing me and it's been invaluable help. My work is far from perfect and still 99% failure. But because of what I've learned from no holds barred critique, I take far less pictures these days because I see all the clichés and low hanging fruit that I used to do and which I see other people doing which aren't worth pressing the shutter for.
 
Adam-G said:
A random bloke on the internet smacking a cardboard box without rhythm would be equally valid musically if everything is subjective
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I would argue that his music is equally valid in the sense that someone might find it most enjoyable.

In my opinion, art of each and every kind is subjective. The objective part of music is the pattern of frequencies that you can feed into an oscilloscope or a computer and print out on a sheet of paper. The pleasure or otherwise, which you gain from the experience of hearing that music is entirely in your mind and may well be unique to you.

Far from denigrating the art involved, I think this is a positive feature, perhaps the most positive feature of all art. That's why Prachett's pesky Auditors couldn't find the reason the painting was liked - the reason wasn't in the painting but supplied by the minds of the viewers.
 
Merlin5 said:
...on a particularly notorious critique forum I'm a member of...
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You've got to let me know which one that is, I'm curious how brutal it is - the good thing here is that if you're going in expecting a kicking you'll already be prepared, well, usually - seems some weren't but maybe they wandered in without knowing.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I would argue that his music is equally valid in the sense that someone might find it most enjoyable.

In my opinion, art of each and every kind is subjective. The objective part of music is the pattern of frequencies that you can feed into an oscilloscope or a computer and print out on a sheet of paper. The pleasure or otherwise, which you gain from the experience of hearing that music is entirely in your mind and may well be unique to you.

Far from denigrating the art involved, I think this is a positive feature, perhaps the most positive feature of all art. That's why Prachett's pesky Auditors couldn't find the reason the painting was liked - the reason wasn't in the painting but supplied by the minds of the viewers.
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To me, that by definition is a huge denigration of the effort, dedication and insight it takes to become proficient enough in any field to convey something via an artistic medium.

Of course, there's nothing to stop someone enjoying the sound of someone hitting a cardboard box out of time but to suggest it's on par technically with even a rudimentary 3 chord busker, never mind virtuoso musicians is bordering on insane.

The prevailing culture of 'my opinion is as good as your knowledge' is not something I'll ever subscribe to.
 
Adam-G said:
but to suggest it's on par technically with even a rudimentary 3 chord busker,
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You have twisted what I wrote entirely out of context and missed my point entirely.
Adam-G said:
...bordering on insane.
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If I had written such, then you might have a point but as it is, I think you are entirely wrong.
Adam-G said:
The prevailing culture of 'my opinion is as good as your knowledge' is not something I'll ever subscribe to.
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If such a condition were what I was writing about, I would have to agree with your conclusion but I wasn't.
 
Merlin5 said:
I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't like. But the more you investigate street photography and the more you study the work of the greats, the more you start to see that there really is good and bad street photography.

Alex Webb frequently says 99 per cent of street photography is about failure. What do you think that means?

Robert Frank shot 767 rolls of film and almost 27,000 frames for The Americans. The book only has 83 photos. What do you think that means?
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So does that mean he took 26,917 bad photos?
 
What a shame that the OP who started this debate appears not to have come back to receive the collected wisdom and thank people for it, or to challenge any of it himself.
 
JohnN said:
Well, I don't often end up in this corner of the forum, but for this thread I'm glad I did - very rare I'll read everything written, and rarer that I pay attention, but some gold here.

Interesting the take and what's good or bad, and as an uneducated man, I do get hung up on the technical aspects - a picture will be discarded if its out of focus, or the depth of field leave a messy background, however, in complete contrast to this, one of the few pictures on my wall is a poor composed, badly lit "snap" my my grandma (now dead), holding one of my kids as a baby (very much alive) with my auntie (completely insane) photobombing the shot - this to me is a great picture, not because of how it looks but what it means.

One point on critique is a phrase I often use, that some people are "suffering from opinions", critique when both requested and given with a genuine wish to help is constructive, but when given without consideration based solely on technical aspects, or worse yet, a feeling of superiority are destructive.
I know this as I posted a picture a long time ago, I couldn't tell you which or when, all I recall was the feeling that something I was proud of was apparently rubbish, that made me put the camera down - you could call me a snowflake, or worse, but I know I'm not as I've survived some absolute *******s in a work environment over the years, but the vulnerability attached to something can leave cracks in the armour that some appear to delight in exploiting.

On a happier note though and returning to this thread, there really are some great ideas and thoughts in here and I thank you all for this.

Something that wandered into my head as I rambled on, is that one great picture that I didn't take, great, because it really told a story.
It was a loads of kids chasing a super car at a car fest type thing, it spoke to me, the comparison between them chasing the money, in much the same way children in poor countries might chase the rich.
So why didn't I take it? - I had my camera, and even the though, so why?
Because there were kids in the shot - the media (social and press) presumption that every old bloke with a camera has "another reason" to take the photo has stopped me taking more than one potentially great picture, so hats off to you brave street photographers.
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That last paragraph is really sad. Understandable, but sad.
 
Adam-G said:
To me, that by definition is a huge denigration of the effort, dedication and insight it takes to become proficient enough in any field to convey something via an artistic medium.

Of course, there's nothing to stop someone enjoying the sound of someone hitting a cardboard box out of time but to suggest it's on par technically with even a rudimentary 3 chord busker, never mind virtuoso musicians is bordering on insane.

The prevailing culture of 'my opinion is as good as your knowledge' is not something I'll ever subscribe to.
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Do your thoughts in this post also apply to modern art?
 
Eucris said:
It is the "like" button that has killed off comments in the picture threads.
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Are you a member previously banned returning under another name?

The like button has been around a long time, much longer than the lack of crit, but this comment has often been made. All the like does is provide a quick alternative to saying 'Nice photo' 'great capture' or any one of a dozen meaningless compliments that can be applied. Real crit takes time and thought generally (although there are occasionally pictures so poor there are no redeeming features at all, which makes it much quicker) and not many are willing to commit the energy required when it isn't received and considered serously.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Are you a member previously banned returning under another name?
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No. I have never been banned from this site, or any other site.


ancient_mariner said:
The like button has been around a long time, much longer than the lack of crit, but this comment has often been made. All the like does is provide a quick alternative to saying 'Nice photo' 'great capture' or any one of a dozen meaningless compliments that can be applied. Real crit takes time and thought generally (although there are occasionally pictures so poor there are no redeeming features at all, which makes it much quicker) and not many are willing to commit the energy required when it isn't received and considered serously.
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Why are likes meaningless. Because you don’t learn anything from them. If I were to post a photograph and it received half a dozen likes what does that tell me. Nothing. The result is that I would just carry on talking the same pictures. If, however, I got a few comments such as, “it's a bit dark,” “it’s a bright,” “it’s a bit blurry,” or “the dark object protruding into the image on the left side is a bit distracting,” then it gives you something to think about. And anyone can make such comments, they don’t require any great amount of thought or effort to make.
 
Eucris said:
No. I have never been banned from this site, or any other site.
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Good. It has been a common refrain, with similar arguments givenas to why for many years.
Eucris said:
Why are likes meaningless. Because you don’t learn anything from them. If I were to post a photograph and it received half a dozen likes what does that tell me. Nothing. The result is that I would just carry on talking the same pictures. If, however, I got a few comments such as, “it's a bit dark,” “it’s a bright,” “it’s a bit blurry,” or “the dark object protruding into the image on the left side is a bit distracting,” then it gives you something to think about. And anyone can make such comments, they don’t require any great amount of thought or effort to make.
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To make meaningful crit requires you to actually spend time studying the photo. A cursory glance might make you think one side is too bright without noticing the careful gradation of tone across the image or subtle shadow detail intentionally tevealed. Etc. And then the crit is actually negative rather than helpful.

And as I said, before 'like' was a thing people would leave similarly encouraging but equally useless comments. What's changed is the people, more than the possibility.
 
Merlin5 said:
Robert Frank shot 767 rolls of film and almost 27,000 frames for The Americans. The book only has 83 photos. What do you think that means?
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Cockney said:
So does that mean he took 26,917 bad photos?
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Thats a different thing all together - that's about selecting the right photographs for the book - which isn't the same as choosing the best 83 photos. It says how important editing and sequencing is - a task that a lot of photographers will outsource..
 
ancient_mariner said:
To make meaningful crit requires you to actually spend time studying the photo. A cursory glance might make you think one side is too bright without noticing the careful gradation of tone across the image or subtle shadow detail intentionally tevealed. Etc. And then the crit is actually negative rather than helpful.
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I must confess that were I giving a critique I might very well point out (possibly incorrectly) that one side of an image is too bright. But what I'd hope is that I would be learning just as much from having the error in my critique pointed out, as I would from reading other critiques, and as - hopefully - the original photographer would from all the comments. This is what I alluded to in my first post in this thread - critiques can be just as valuable to the critiquer as the critiquee, if those are even words. That would of course require everyone to be open and honest and accepting of their own limitations and lack of experience and to join in the communal experience of learning.

All that said, reading this thread, I've come to the conclusion that it's probably best just to hit the like button and move on.
 
Likes also allow you to say exactly what it says on the tin - "I like that picture", nothing more nothing less, I may well have little to feedback to the poster, or perhaps its something I do not feel I have enough knowledge to speak up about, granted I could post something for discussion and learn something myself, but unless critique has been requested it seems a little rude - would you call out the chef and suggest more salt because you prefer it, I doubt it, but you would if they had asked for your opinion.

I do agree though that other than to say its been seen and liked it does say little more - perhaps the likes panel could be split into two:

Discussion feedback (which is what its really for) - and as such is a way to say you agree, disagree, whatever without flooding the discussion with drivel (hmn.... looks at my own posts!)
Picture feedback - More picture related options - such as :: like, love, perfect, offering critique etc..
 
JohnN said:
unless critique has been requested it seems a little rude - would you call out the chef and suggest more salt because you prefer it, I doubt it, but you would if they had asked for your opinion.
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Wearing my moderator hat for a moment, ALL pictures posted in the sharing & critique section of the site are assumed to be asking FOR critique. The only place where crit should not be offered is in Photos : for Pleasure.
 
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