As @Adam-G said, it's well worth doing if you are likely to want to use some of the functions - but like much modern equipment, the '80/20 rule' appears to be in evidence - for 80% of the available functionality you need just put in 20% of the effort to use, it's the other 20% that takes the remaining 80% of figuring out!
and please use their services
Who thinks DSLR / Mirrorles and equipment is complicated
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woof woof
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I remember years ago when BMW brought out their (I think it was called...) idrive. On the general subject of tech in cars the then boss of Alfa commentated that half of his customers couldn't program the in car stereo properly and he didn't know what most of the buttons on his phone were for.
I think generally things do have more features than many people need but IMO much of this tech can be ignored and easily so. The tech we don't have to use really shouldn't frighten us and of course it is still there for the people who do want to use it.
I think generally things do have more features than many people need but IMO much of this tech can be ignored and easily so. The tech we don't have to use really shouldn't frighten us and of course it is still there for the people who do want to use it.
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It’s odd, my smartwatch has 2 ‘buttons’ and it’s enough to give me access to dozens of apps and hundreds of features.
My phone has 3 buttons (not counting the screen and the back) and one ‘switch’ (purely to turn it to silent) but has hundreds of functions.
The old software adage used to be ‘if an operating system needs a user manual, it’s failed’.
And unlike with the phone, most camera users prefer to have dedicated buttons, making the UI instantly complex, and complain about having to use menus, which are fairly straightforward to use, but often difficult to navigate.
My phone has 3 buttons (not counting the screen and the back) and one ‘switch’ (purely to turn it to silent) but has hundreds of functions.
The old software adage used to be ‘if an operating system needs a user manual, it’s failed’.
And unlike with the phone, most camera users prefer to have dedicated buttons, making the UI instantly complex, and complain about having to use menus, which are fairly straightforward to use, but often difficult to navigate.
woof woof
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I once had a GF who had many fingers in many pies and one thing she was doing was developing websites which were easier and more intuitive to use. She did one little experiment on me. She logged me into an existing commercial website and asked me to go through the motions of buying something and it actually took me several seconds to work out how to get the item into the basket and get out of there. All with her looking over my shoulder at what I was doing. Several seconds might not sound like a big deal but for people with any special requirements this could be a real issue.
I do think that menus and how things are presented and the steps we need to go through should be thought about a lot more.
I do think that menus and how things are presented and the steps we need to go through should be thought about a lot more.
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As a software engineer, creating a good UI can be one of the harder things to do.
When you design a UI it will usually seem intuitive - as it will be structured the way you 'expect' - but different people have different expectations, and what is obvious to one person can be incomprehensible to others.
Don't be so daft! Have you ever known grit on the pressure plate? I know by your previous posts, I have been around film based photography quite a bit longer than you and I certainly haven't.
woof woof
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I'd hope that there are other people in companies pipelines with different views and hopefully some with have an eye on what end users with a range of views and abilities will be able to use easily and well.
Stephen L
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Maybe not grit, as I alluded to, but I have experience of old film cameras with scratched pressure plates (no idea how they occurred) which have put marks on the back surface of the film. Likewise the rollers. When I was training as a press photographer (curtailed due to redundancy) I was always told to check for these things. Also a cause of scratches was damaged felt on re+useable film cartridges. This was in the late ‘60s.
ancient_mariner
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At risk of sounding even more like an old fart doing back in the day.... A work colleague bought a canon EOS650 around the same time I bought a Minolta 7000, and one day we compared cameras.
"Martin, how do you change X?"
"Errr, let me look in the manual."
Etc.
The Minolta was fantastically easy to use, while the canon had buttons hidden under a flap, and frankly, was slow and awkward for people coming from manual winding film cameras. So much depends on not simply the design of the software, but also the labelling of functions in a way that's meaningful. Unfortunately the canon sold well and the Minolta didn't, meaning everyone copied their poor approach instead of Minolta's.
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How is that an answer to my post?
Has the nurse mixed up your meds again?
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Yeah I was talking about film. Digital doesn’t take up much physical space at all?
ancient_mariner
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Let's remember this isn't hot topics, Phil.
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He's just being robust. Damned Northerners!
In the real world, if someone was careless a pressure plate could get scratched. And a scratch could raise burrs along its edges. Which could scratch a film. It hasn't happened to me, but I could imagine it.
In the real world, if someone was careless a pressure plate could get scratched. And a scratch could raise burrs along its edges. Which could scratch a film. It hasn't happened to me, but I could imagine it.
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Sorry but I was reacting to ‘Don’t be daft!’
Quite a strong opening to a post that contains nothing relevant to the post he was responding to.
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cuthbert
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I've got a 5D3, 5D4, and R6II and with the DSLRs I customised my buttons and the various other settings and just left them in AV. For my R6II I ended up using the C1,C2,C3 custom functions on the dial so I could quickly switch between an old skool single AF point, the magic eye / object detection and electronic shutter (which are my 3 most common scenarios). I find that works pretty well as at times, despite all the magic the newer cameras does, sometimes, I just want focus point a can one around without it trying to be clever.
That said, whenever I go back to my older camera, I do miss the new technology - it certainly makes shooting easier and you get fewer AF misses, and I find once you do find the time to set up those options on the custom dial, you can switch between without evening looking in just a second. My only complaint is when the camera goes to sleep it can forget any temporary changes you make to the settings (I know you can turn that off, but I like the idea that I know what my camera will do when I switch modes)
That said, whenever I go back to my older camera, I do miss the new technology - it certainly makes shooting easier and you get fewer AF misses, and I find once you do find the time to set up those options on the custom dial, you can switch between without evening looking in just a second. My only complaint is when the camera goes to sleep it can forget any temporary changes you make to the settings (I know you can turn that off, but I like the idea that I know what my camera will do when I switch modes)
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That's funny, I thought you were a Jack Russell! ;-) But we digress ...
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I find it perverse that my Leica V-LUX bridge camera designed for amateurs has a menu system at least 70% of which includes functions & features I could never dream of using and my Lumix S1 designed as a pro' camera is blindingly simple and functional. The Q (i.e. quick) menu of the bridge camera is like the flight deck of an airliner.
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I wonder sometimes if people designing cameras forget their intended use. @Phil V has a point about entry level cameras being more awkward to use than enthusiast/pro models.
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Perhaps the lower cost cameras, aimed at the larger market of enthusiasts for whom the camera is a toy and the more "bells and whistles" the better. The upmarket cameras, aimed at the more experienced user, concentrate on those features the marketing department has identified as what the customer is likely to require.
Maybe that's why Canon produced, at the same time, two cameras so different as the 1Ds II and the Ixus 70.
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Possibly. But the V-LUX, a top end bridge camera is far more complicated than the low end DMC 38 bridge camera and the DMC S1 Pro spec mirrorless camera.
I think that it might be down to the people they ask in the user group research. Amateurs may well produce a long want list without comprehending how complicated accessing all these functions will be in a menu. Five people could each want totally different features that the others would never access. Whereas pro's will be wanting the basics readily at hand and have no interest in the gimmicks. I think a lot of it is driven by the internet based review sites. They will mark cameras higher the more functions and features that they have even if nobody ever uses them.
I haven't worked out how to strip the Q menu of the Leica of all the many functions that I will never need. It makes it harder to quickly access the ones that I do need by scrolling past the ones that I don't need. On the Lumix S1 the functions of the Q menu are far fewer, but all pertinent. I can quickly select and change the iso, white balance or exposure compensation with two button presses and wheel adjustments. There is nothing in the Q menu that is not important.
One problem I have not seen mentioned is the physical difficulty that some people (me included) will almost certainly come across. 1. Memory, this drops of as years advance. so remembering what does what or not. 2. physical ability. This also can affect some people, and this includes me simply because I have big hands and pressing tiny (comparatively) buttons to change modes become somewhat difficult to hit the right button every time. Also these buttons have tiny writing or symbols which users with advancing years (and some, not so advanced) have difficulty seeing them without swapping their glasses every time. Give me decent large knobs or levers and I am as happy as Larry.
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Electronics-heavy cameras tend to have a plethora of controls, many of which interact, spread across buttons, dials, switches and a menu interface. With the physical controls, it can be easy to move one by accident without noticing. I find it quite hard to keep tabs on everything. But there's no perfect machine, and it all contributes to the price we pay for having the capabilities that the cameras give us.
Another aspect is remembering what does what ...
People do have differing aptitudes, and indeed differing goals ...
Another aspect is remembering what does what ...
People do have differing aptitudes, and indeed differing goals ...
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ancient_mariner
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Andrew F may have a point. It's a bridge camera, an expensive toy, so all kinds of stuff gets added and the more expensive it is, the more features no-one will use.