Who thinks DSLR / Mirrorles and equipment is complicated

[LCPete]

I mostly either photograph insects (macro) or animals and birds
Once I figured out the best settings for each with the help of utube I just saved the settings on the camera C1 for macro and C3 for animals and birds and any other moving subjects
Makes life really easy I just switch between C1 and C3 depending what I am photographing

 

[snerkler]

Learn how to change the date twice a year.

I always forget to do this

 

[ancient_mariner]

I seem to have different priorities from many:

Really good sensor - where the image starts.
Good AF, subject eye tracking now a minimum expectation.
Real-time live view of what I'm photographing.
Comfy and easy to use controls.
Range of high quality lenses (pref. not extortionate).

I've reached the point, around 4 1/2 years after buying my A7III that I'd like a sensor upgrade, and if the AF was a bit better too then that's a bonus. I don't care what bells and whistles are fitted in addition, provided they don't get in the way of taking pictures.

 

[Rodinal]

Aperture priority + auto IS0 or manual + aperture of my choice + 1/125 or 1/160 + auto ISO.
Learn how to move the focus point.
Learn how to select evaluative or spot focus.
Learn how to set the 10 second timer for the twice a year I'll use it.
Learn how to format the card.
Learn how to change the date twice a year.

That's 99,999% of my "photography."

A.P. Yes that is what I use on my Auto film camera. On my F2a it is manual only and for what I photograph I have no problem.
If I need to, I lock the focus (On my F100)
Never user the self time (not into selfies) I use an cable release and a tripod
Change the film not the memory card
Don't need to I have a super accurate wrist watch

Don't get me wrong, but I do use a digital, I have 2 both quite elderly and both Nikons, a D90 and a D300s and they do the job for me more than adequately. and use the same lenses that I use for my film cameras. And how many of us print at more than A3 it just gets too expensive in inks.

 

[snerkler]

I seem to have different priorities from many:

Really good sensor - where the image starts.
Good AF, subject eye tracking now a minimum expectation.
Real-time live view of what I'm photographing.
Comfy and easy to use controls.
Range of high quality lenses (pref. not extortionate).

I've reached the point, around 4 1/2 years after buying my A7III that I'd like a sensor upgrade, and if the AF was a bit better too then that's a bonus. I don't care what bells and whistles are fitted in addition, provided they don't get in the way of taking pictures.

I've never really thought where my priorities lie, but off the top of my head I would say the system is the most important to me, which lenses are available, the cost of these and the weight. Sensor performance is right up there, especially things like dynamic range and resoution. Ergonomics and button location and customisation is very important. AF is important but somewhere down the line, as are things like blackout free shooting and EVF/LCD quality

 

[ancient_mariner]

Never user the self time (not into selfies) I use an ca

Self timer is handy when you don't have the cable release with you.

 

[Don Fischer]

I get what you're saying, but it takes many many years for things like phones to become obsolete and isn't really the reason people 'have to have' the latest model

With cameras I often question how much of the modern tech we actually need compared to how much we're made to think we need it so to speak. For example, you will still see numerous F1 togs are still using Canon 1Dx's, Nikon D6's etc, likewise football togs, Olympic togs, wedding togs etc etc. Fashion photographers often use medium format that have the most basic of AF. They see the camera as a tool, and if it does the job why bother with all the bells and whilstes just for the sake of it.

It's numpties like me that hang around too much on forums and watch too many youtube videos that 'have to have' the latest and greatest In fairness though I just enjoy trying new tech, I don't think for one second it will improve my photography, at least not the final image. Things like eye-af is great, and makes life easier, but I coped pretty well with the D750 in all honesty, and in terms of my final image struggle to see much difference between the shots I took with that and the shots I'm now taking with the A1.

Does that mean I want to go back to the D750? Errr, nope

I have a wall phone here at the house. Been there about 35 yrs and still I can make a call on it. As for cell phones, phones were made to call someone on and today the number of things they do is astounding and while convenient, not necessary. I have never had a cwll phone that did much more than make calls, one of those little folding things pretty inexpensive. My son's phone was expensive as hell and I haven't a clue even how to turn it on!

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The first 30 years of my working life was simplicity itself in terms of using mid and high end cameras.
Twin lens reflex, range finder, large format of all kinds were simplicity itself in use. There was no need to read a manual of any kind. However the more you knew about the science of photography the better.

To day a new digital camera puts a premium on working through the manual and understanding the intricacies of its unique menue system, and how the various settings are limited or blocked by others.
However when it comes down to it all the controls can ever do, is to set and operate the shutter and aperture. Adjust the iso setting. And set the focus of the lens.
All the rest is added complication.

How easy a particular camera is to use, comes down to how well these things are integrated though the menu system and available means of setting. To date these thing are far from intuitive.

 

[woof woof]

A.P. Yes that is what I use on my Auto film camera. On my F2a it is manual only and for what I photograph I have no problem.
If I need to, I lock the focus (On my F100)
Never user the self time (not into selfies) I use an ca
Change the film not the memory card
Don't need to I have a super accurate wrist watch

Don't get me wrong, but I do use a digital, I have 2 both quite elderly and both Nikons, a D90 and a D300s and they do the job for me more than adequately. and use the same lenses that I use for my film cameras. And how many of us print at more than A3 it just gets too expensive in inks.

I use the timer mostly when the camera is on a tripod. I don't use a tripod much but when I do I think the 10 second timer is nice to let any vibration from me pressing the shutter dissipate.

 

[Petrochemist]

I always forget to do this

Just as well there is no advantage to changing the date.
The hour might be appropriate, but I don't even bother with that keeping my cameras on GMT, Precise time of shots is rarely any significance, and I can convert if required.

 

[snerkler]

Just as well there is no advantage to changing the date.
The hour might be appropriate, but I don't even bother with that keeping my cameras on GMT, Precise time of shots is rarely any significance, and I can convert if required.

I took that as what he meant

 

[IanF_BW]

Depends on how you view complication. My Fuji, well it has levers and buttons and dials all over. It can get complicated and confusing, but they serve a purpose. It turns out it is not really for me. It’s why I went down the Leica rabbit hole recently. I like the idea of a camera I can set up in the menu, and then just hand off to the good lady if I fancy. The Fuji is like her makeup box, the Leica, like her hair clip. For me, less is more, I’ll take a hair clip over makeup.

I’m the same. I haven’t been to the forum much recently but, having just bought a Fuji XT-50, I thought I’d drop in and see what the discussion is about these days. I used to have an Olympus m4/3 EM-5 MkII. I stopped using it because I hated the menus and I could never remember how I’d set up the various wheels and buttons. So I bought a Leica Q2 and then a M11. So much easier. Rarely any need to use any button - I shoot aperture priority with auto ISO. I never really clicked with the M11 so I've put it up for sale and decided to get a small camera to use alongside my Q2 which will remain my primary camera.

I chose the XT-50 because of its size and reputation for jpeg images just in case that helped minimise my need to process raw images. Took it out today having spent 2 days reading the manual and setting the camera up. I’m still getting used to it but so far it’s a nightmare. Too many buttons, too easily pressed meaning settings are changed without me knowing how and therefore how to get them back against. Set up continues but all the buttons/wheels seem to do something useful so I haven’t yet decided whether to turn off as many as possible. I’m also still trying to work out if it’s possible to turn off the rear screen but then turn it back on with a single click of a button - at the moment I need to cycle through three clicks, which is really irritating!

 

[snerkler]

I’m the same. I haven’t been to the forum much recently but, having just bought a Fuji XT-50, I thought I’d drop in and see what the discussion is about these days. I used to have an Olympus m4/3 EM-5 MkII. I stopped using it because I hated the menus and I could never remember how I’d set up the various wheels and buttons. So I bought a Leica Q2 and then a M11. So much easier. Rarely any need to use any button - I shoot aperture priority with auto ISO. I never really clicked with the M11 so I've put it up for sale and decided to get a small camera to use alongside my Q2 which will remain my primary camera.

I chose the XT-50 because of its size and reputation for jpeg images just in case that helped minimise my need to process raw images. Took it out today having spent 2 days reading the manual and setting the camera up. I’m still getting used to it but so far it’s a nightmare. Too many buttons, too easily pressed meaning settings are changed without me knowing how and therefore how to get them back against. Set up continues but all the buttons/wheels seem to do something useful so I haven’t yet decided whether to turn off as many as possible. I’m also still trying to work out if it’s possible to turn off the rear screen but then turn it back on with a single click of a button - at the moment I need to cycle through three clicks, which is really irritating!

I find this very odd, Leica menus are just as deep and complex as a lot of other cameras imo. I think some people just ‘click’ with a certain menu system, not because it’s easier per se but it just so happens that your brain works that way. Just like some find Canon menus easier than Nikon and vice versa.

 

[ancient_mariner]

I find this very odd, Leica menus are just as deep and complex as a lot of other cameras imo. I think some people just ‘click’ with a certain menu system, not because it’s easier per se but it just so happens that your brain works that way. Just like some find Canon menus easier than Nikon and vice versa.

I do find the titles Sony gives to some functions of the A7III meaningless, and even the manual does a poor job explaining what certain things do. Not sure Nikon or Canon are any better though.

 

[Rodinal]

One benefit of a film camera is you get a clean sensor every time you wind on

 

[ancient_mariner]

One benefit of a film camera is you get a clean sensor every time you wind on

Yes, the dust usually arrives later.

 

[snerkler]

I do find the titles Sony gives to some functions of the A7III meaningless, and even the manual does a poor job explaining what certain things do. Not sure Nikon or Canon are any better though.

I've found this with a lot of things made in Asia tbh, I don't think some things translate very well. I do thing Sony use fancy names just to bamboozle you though For example, after I ran the latest update and had to reinstate my settings I couldn't remember how to change the colour of the shot confirmation box when using silent shooting. It was under "Shoot Timing Display". Not sure what colour has to do with timing but there you go

 

[Ed Sutton]

I wonder if the people who think cameras are complicated because they can't remember what button does what simply don't use their cameras very often.

A 'cheat sheet' written on a piece of gaffer tape stuck to the bottom of the camera can help there.

 

[redhed17]

A long one becaue I have been forced to get up early because of a phone call. Feel free to swerve this one.

I think with some people it does not matter how easy or complicated a device is, in this case a camera, they are just technology averse for whatever reason, and see everything as complicated. If they can do what they want at a sometimes minimal level, they will engage to do the bare minimum to get there. You can point out all the benefits, and that going just a little bit deeper could have big benefits, and over time, make things easier, and most times get a better end result, but they just have the attitude of 'no' to even taking in the advice.

We have had it in work with people with ICT, and some people have had to be forced to do more because it was increasingly part of there job, and how the had to engage and educate their 'clients' with ICT.

Some see how easy just a little knowledge and understanding can transform how they work, and engage with colleagues and 'clients', some still don't use the options they have, to the detriment of themselves and their 'clients'. Some are still swerving a lot, and in some cases getting others to do some of their ICT work, rather than learn some basic things. And a lot of these people have degrees, so not unintelligent, but are just technology averse in their heads. Thankfully they are becoming less and less, because the job they do is embracing the technology, even if they are not, and they will be left behind. It is mindset of any technology is complicated, and they just don't want to know.

And bringing it back to photography, for some of these people, they will only engage with the technology if the manufacturers make a fundamental change to some aspect that necessitates they go a bit deeper, but because of their attitude, they do it kicking and screaming, and saying it is the hardest thing, when for most others it is not. And some, because of their attitude, may not go to the next level of the technology. Some stayed with film, some reluctantly moved to DSLR's and stay there.

And I know that there are other reasons for staying with, or using, either of those options, but for some it is because they are willing to live with the level of technology they are at, and don't need anymore, regardless of any benefits they may get, and don't want to go any further.

I myself have always been interested in technology, but a DSLR does everything I need it to do. I know the benefits of mirrorless, and read about every advancement, but they offer not much for me and what I take pictures of.

And because I have gone into all the settings of my cameras, I feel I am getting the most out of them. I also thankfully got the most advanced DSLR at the time because I wanted the cutting edge tech of the time. Same with my compact camera, imho it is the most advanced thing on the market, and in some ways is better than my DSLR. I go into their menus to see what they can do to get the most out them, and set them up to be the most intuitive they can be.

 

[droj]

I wonder if the people who think cameras are complicated because they can't remember what button does what simply don't use their cameras very often.

A 'cheat sheet' written on a piece of gaffer tape stuck to the bottom of the camera can help there.

In my case it's not how often I use my cameras, it's how seldom if at all, since they tend to be over-featured, that I use some of their functions!

 

[woof woof]

Yes, the dust usually arrives later.

This was one of the main reasons I gave up with film and went digital.

I stayed with film when digital started to take off but I noticed a fall off in the quality of the prints I was getting back. The last straw was when I complained for a second time about prints covered with spots and hairs and received a note telling me to take care of negatives. Negatives which I'd never touched. Negatives which had remained in the little packet they were in when I received the prints. I never did send those negatives off for a third time as I just thought "What's the point?" I just assumed they'd cut costs due to competition from digital, maybe laid off the experienced staff, I could only guess, so I went out and bought my first digital camera, a Fuji S602 pro zoom. OK, that camera was a bit of a disaster and I quickly moved on to a Canon 300D but from then on I saw digital as my future. I did briefly try film again but it didn't last.

 

[Marino]

5 people so far “just hate it”
I’ll add one more vote to make us 6
It’s not that I find dslrs/mirrorless complicated.
Maybe aesthetically a bit underwhelming.
A professional wouldn’t care because it’s a tool at the end of a day, but I’m an amateur and prefer something more minimal.
I prefer manual film cameras for having only the most important buttons/controls on display.
.
.
I also find some brands unnecessarily complicated more so than others. To make things worse these particular brands keep changing the location of the buttons every time they update their newest model

 

[jamesev]

Like many things there are a lot more "features" now things have really moved into electronics, i'm sure you could say the same thing about cars, mean that theres more emphasis on software ability in mirrorless allowing for advancements with firmware updates (as long as the manufacturer has left scope for the hardware to accommodate the software capabilities.

Such features as auto eye detect for focusing i'm sure is one of those ones that they want you to embrace really understand and put your trust in.

Its probably just the next evolution of going from P to M

 

[Petrochemist]

In my case it's not how often I use my cameras, it's how seldom if at all, since they tend to be over-featured, that I use some of their functions!

I don't find it an inconvenience for a camera to have features that don't interest me hidden in their menu systems. Indeed I don't mind having a position for video wasted on the mode wheel either.
Much more of an issue is when a camera doesn't have a feature that my subject calls for. Sometime the feature can be done in post (such as focus stacking, or HDR) provided suitable shots can be taken.
I've often shoot long exposures in low light & would love to have the ability to see how the shot is coming along as in Olympus's live composite, but none of my cameras have a feature like that.
One of my cameras refuses to give metering or focus aids if it can't talk to the lens. A real pain for adapting lenses (the role I was hoping to use it for) & sometimes a pain with native lenses when contacts have got dirty.
Some recent subjects have really benefited from high frame rates, I've been shooting a 5 or 10 fps, then saw three consecutive shots from a friends system at 60 fps, his three shots differed very significantly, as the action progressed that rapidly.

 

[snerkler]

I don't find it an inconvenience for a camera to have features that don't interest me hidden in their menu systems. Indeed I don't mind having a position for video wasted on the mode wheel either.
Much more of an issue is when a camera doesn't have a feature that my subject calls for. Sometime the feature can be done in post (such as focus stacking, or HDR) provided suitable shots can be taken.
I've often shoot long exposures in low light & would love to have the ability to see how the shot is coming along as in Olympus's live composite, but none of my cameras have a feature like that.
One of my cameras refuses to give metering or focus aids if it can't talk to the lens. A real pain for adapting lenses (the role I was hoping to use it for) & sometimes a pain with native lenses when contacts have got dirty.
Some recent subjects have really benefited from high frame rates, I've been shooting a 5 or 10 fps, then saw three consecutive shots from a friends system at 60 fps, his three shots differed very significantly, as the action progressed that rapidly.

I second this. Olympus' live composite is a great feature and unless it's patented (which I doubt) I don't understand why no-one else offers this. I don't understand why some manufacturers have taken away such features as sweep panoramic and HDR. OK so not everyone will use it but surely it can't take up a lot of processing power or whatever.

 

[Faldrax]

I second this. Olympus' live composite is a great feature and unless it's patented (which I doubt) I don't understand why no-one else offers this. I don't understand why some manufacturers have taken away such features as sweep panoramic and HDR. OK so not everyone will use it but surely it can't take up a lot of processing power or whatever.

What it will take is a lot of fast memory - it needs to hold ALL the individual images AND the resulting composite simultaneously.
When I was writing embedded software for machine processing / handling of documents one of the trickiest parts was managing with the limited high speed memory available - and ensuring the relevant images and data were shuffled between high speed, low speed and non-volatile memory as efficiently as possible.

 

[Rodinal]

Yes, the dust usually arrives later.

Not on my negatives it doesn't. I can't remember the last print I had to spot to disguise a dust mark. The occasional hair The penalty of having a hairy moggy) but no dust.

 

[ancient_mariner]

Not on my negatives it doesn't. I can't remember the last print I had to spot to disguise a dust mark. The occasional hair The penalty of having a hairy moggy) but no dust.

You are obviously very careful and thorough, and have a clean environment. But I can see plenty of others know what I'm talking about - it's a lot easier dealing with dust spots in LR than using the pencils to try to touch out or even re-print.

 

[Rodinal]

You are obviously very careful and thorough, and have a clean environment. But I can see plenty of others know what I'm talking about - it's a lot easier dealing with dust spots in LR than using the pencils to try to touch out or even re-print.

Who uses a pencil? The graphite will not take on modern emulsions. For a long time now, at least 20 years when I have had to remove a dust mark on colour or black and white I go to digital technology - I.E. I use the dregs out of an inkjet cartridge of varying colours, distilled water with a touch of wetting agent and a '000' Squirrel hair brush. Black and white is easy and even warm tone - just add a minute quantity of red or yellow. (not both) For colour prints I can mix almost whatever colour I need, but I find for pale colours just simple, dilute grey or black is enough to disguise the offending mark. In fact all the colours are used in a very diluted form.

I will admit that removing marks or objects is a different ball game and have yet to find the answer with colour but with B&W.I have a 10cc bottle of a photographic bleach bought over 25 years ago can remove even quite dense black marks after which the print is rewashed, dried and if need be, retouched to disguise what I have done. I have even found that domestic bleach also works in some cases, but the retouching must be done when the print is wet, not soaking, but wetter than just damp. domestic bleach will kill emulsion stone dead but not the PE coating so you are left with a surface mark that cannot be disguised.

Actually I am not particularly careful about dust in the 1st place, I just seem to be very lucky. I even have a carpet in my darkroom so that should be a recipe for dust, but apparently not. The water is used filtered when I develop the film and is hung to dry in the boiler cupboard which has a gentle through flow of air - that's all

 

[Adam-G]

Another thing I've noticed is that a lot of manufacturers will have ways around the menu complexities if you put a few minutes in.

I have 5 or 6 of my most used functions in a custom menu and I've mapped Animal detect and Human detect autofocus modes to the lens function button so I can cycle through them quickly without going through the menus or even putting the camera down.

 

[Faldrax]

Another thing I've noticed is that a lot of manufacturers will have ways around the menu complexities if you put a few minutes in.

I have 5 or 6 of my most used functions in a custom menu and I've mapped Animal detect and Human detect autofocus modes to the lens function button so I can cycle through them quickly without going through the menus or even putting the camera down.

Of course, you do need to spend a while working out how to set up those custom button and menus...

 

[Stephen L]

One benefit of a film camera is you get a clean sensor every time you wind on

Only if you’ve no grit on your backplate

 

[ancient_mariner]

Who uses a pencil?

Retouching pencils were a thing once (B&H still sell them) for mono prints. TBH I can't imagine printing in colour from film now other than after digitising, in which case retouching is enormously easier.

 

[fujilover]

Its really not that bad if you stick with one brand and put the time in to learn what you need to know

I have once again ended up with three brands, my own fault but switching between them is tough going.

I do find that Canon are the most intuitive bodies to use, and I have always felt that way.

 

[Rodinal]

Only if you’ve no grit on your backplate

You really are plumbing the depths of the barrel for imaginary problems. In close on 63 years of taking photographs I have never had grit on the back plate. I have had when using Kodak IR film the pattern of the backplate show through because the film had no antihalation layer but grit....... NEVER in a hundred years,

 

[Stephen L]

You really are plumbing the depths of the barrel for imaginary problems. In close on 63 years of taking photographs I have never had grit on the back plate. I have had when using Kodak IR film the pattern of the backplate show through because the film had no antihalation layer but grit....... NEVER in a hundred years,

Very sorry to have upset you, but my post was tongue-in-cheek. If you know what that means...

PS I have the same photographic life span (so far)

 

[Phil V]

You really are plumbing the depths of the barrel for imaginary problems.

Says the guy who is literally demanding his imaginary lack of technical ability is real and not just a choice.

 

[ancient_mariner]

Says the guy who is literally demanding his imaginary lack of technical ability is real and not just a choice.

It's been clear for some time that this is a choice, nothing wrong with that at all, but better to be honest with oneself and embrace ones preferences positively. @Rodinal has a level of skills that exceeds most film photographers back in the day, as the reference to retouching shows. That's great, we need people who can keep the old methods alive and adapt them to current tech.

 

[Adam-G]

Of course, you do need to spend a while working out how to set up those customer button and menus...

True. But it was the best 5 minutes I've ever spent as it's saved me hours in the long run.

 

[woof woof]

Of course, you do need to spend a while working out how to set up those customer button and menus...

You only need to set them up if you want to customise the kit to your own preferences but if you are genuinely completely baffled, or a total technophobe or just don't care then why bother with the menus and customisation? Just use aperture, shutter or manual modes and be happy.

You don't have to do any customisation and you don't have to set up any menus if for whatever reason you can't or simply don't want to. The kit will still work almost out of the box... almost... but you will probably have to select the language and set the time first.