Clarkson suspended by the BBC, TG taken off air.

[RedRobin]

That's 'opinion', and in my 'opinion' the N word used in any context by a white middle aged well connected bloke is racist. And you might have noticed but I'm not a 'taking life too seriously' kind of bloke.

Just like in some peoples 'opinion' the assault that happened is 'just handbags', it's serious enough for a criminal charge, which in my opinion makes it serious enough for the sack.

You're entitled to your 'opinion' too, but what you wrote above: that's the ridiculous mock outrage that's typical of this debate, I find it immensely funny that the 'Political Correctness gone mad' brigade can't see that 'outrage on behalf of others' isn't exclusive to the lentil knitters.

....It most certainly is my opinion and I stand up for my opinions.

I'm not a sheep and have enough common sense and intelligence to not necessarily agree with how various rules and laws are interpreted - They are all open to being challenged and questioned. That's what is debated in courts.

If someone can't differentiate between what is said in banter, regardless of what is said, and what is said with harsh intent which is likely to be physically acted upon, then that someone is frankly of very limited intelligence and certainly very lacking in a sense of humour.

 

[Phil V]

....It most certainly is my opinion and I stand up for my opinions.

I'm not a sheep and have enough common sense and intelligence to not necessarily agree with how various rules and laws are interpreted - They are all open to being challenged and questioned. That's what is debated in courts.

If someone can't differentiate between what is said in banter, regardless of what is said, and what is said with harsh intent which is likely to be physically acted upon, then that someone is frankly of very limited intelligence and certainly very lacking in a sense of humour.

see above:
here's the dictionary term
Banter isn't being offensive to people who aren't present and have no opportunity to return the 'compliment'

There's plenty of 'banter' on top gear, but racist remarks aimed at 'others' isn't banter and could never be described as such.

'Banter' is James May calling JC a cock, or JC calling James 'captain slow' or picking on each others choice of cars, but making racist remarks about 'others'?

Opinion is one thing, but altering the meaning of a word in order to create a lie... That's not an opinion, it's either deluded or wilfully ignorant.

We don't need the courts to redefine what is 'acceptable banter', his employer ruled JC was out of order and gave him warnings. If he'd have thought a court might get him off the hook, he'd have followed that path.

 

[Laudrup]

That's 'opinion', and in my 'opinion' the N word used in any context by a white middle aged well connected bloke is racist. And you might have noticed but I'm not a 'taking life too seriously' kind of bloke.

So you are limiting what people can say based on their race?

 

[Phil V]

So you are limiting what people can say based on their race?

You're having a laugh! Have another look at what I said

 

[jakeblu]

You might want to read up about Danny " a fixture of the north London metropolitan elite" Cohen. He's been in all the papers for a while now. Denying the BBC and their overtly PC nature would be like denying the Tories are keen on helping fellow toffs or denying the Daily Mail has a problem with EU immigrant benefit cheats.

Michael Beurk said the BBC staff made the Guardian their 'Bible' and political correctness 'their creed'. Peter Sissons left and said in his memoirs ' the BBC was institutionally biased to the Left, politically correct and, during the time he worked for it, rudderless.' It's not exactly some hidden secret.

Your still not making your point very clear. What is it exactly that the liberal lefties at the BBC have done to constrain top gear presenters? All the complaints about top gear controversies haven't come from the BBC but external sources. It was ofcom that upheld the 'slope' incident and chastised the BBC for letting through their editorial process. The BBC was well aware that term had double meaning because in their defence they claimed it was 'mere slang.'

Personally I find it difficult to get riled up by Clarkson but I do wonder sometimes who I find the most amusing. The mindless morons who find Clarkson funny and hang on every word he says or the lefties who are oh so easily offended by his rants. Honestly he gets paid lots of money to spout this drivel, or did anyway. He's paid to be controversial and he is just acting to character. While he may be some right wing Tory boys wet dream really no decent leftie should ever take him seriously enough to be offended.

 

[big soft moose]

How has the BBC treated Clarkson over this? In reality they have done zilch, nothing, nada. His contract kept running until it's natural expiry date. They have done nothing.

Apart from investigating the incident, pubically vilifying him in the press and refusing to renew his contract - quite a big difference from sweeping it under the rug and pretending it isnt happening a la saville

 

[Raptor Mike]

People in this country seem to think that only white Brits are racist (I hope I don't offend anyone by calling them/us whites or Brits) just like only men can be sexist, Christians can be religionist, the able body can be disableist, the young can be ageist. Which is in fact complete bull.

My Dad's disabled and has called himself a cripple because being crippled that is exactly what he is. People are to touchy feely about what is basically just words.

 

[big soft moose]

Seriously? please tell me thats not true that does make me sad because no way on earth could that be seen as racist.. and thats exactly my point... if he where alive would they arrest him? are the TV people saying all black people are stupid.. because you would have to be to think that was racist

But its still there.. how can black people be allowed to say it but not white...

I'm fairly sure Eminem is white and he uses it extensively without penalty.

In reality its about how you use it - no one is going to prosecute you for calling your dog nigger, or indeed using it in a rap - but they will if you use it in a tirade of racial abuse

 

[Steep]

The BBC have left the door open for Clarkson to come back at a later date, by letting his contract run out and not renewing it they haven't actually censured him as such while still appearing to do just that.

 

[Phil V]

People in this country seem to think that only white Brits are racist (I hope I don't offend anyone by calling them/us whites or Brits) just like only men can be sexist, Christians can be religionist, the able body can be disableist, the young can be ageist. Which is fact complete bull.

Two questions Mike:
1. Which people think only white people can be racist? The only person I've ever seen say this was just a very nasty bigoted bloke, who refused to be swayed from this 'belief' despite hours of debate and hundreds of real world examples to prove he was simply wrong.

2. WTF does 'Which is fact complete bull.' mean?

 

[Phil V]

The BBC have left the door open for Clarkson to come back at a later date, by letting his contract run out and not renewing it they haven't actually censured him as such while still appearing to do just that.

But where's the drama in that? What am I supposed to get annoyed about if he's been 'let go' but not 'sacked'?

 

[Raptor Mike]

Two questions Mike:
1. Which people think only white people can be racist? The only person I've ever seen say this was just a very nasty bigoted bloke, who refused to be swayed from this 'belief' despite hours of debate and hundreds of real world examples to prove he was simply wrong.

2. WTF does 'Which is fact complete bull.' mean?

1 This is how I see it. Whites get killed by blacks, but is not racist, but the other way around and the media are shouting racist attack before they know the facts. Is it anyone I have that view!!
2 Edited as soon as I saw the mistake

 

[RedRobin]

see above:
here's the dictionary term
Banter isn't being offensive to people who aren't present and have no opportunity to return the 'compliment'

There's plenty of 'banter' on top gear, but racist remarks aimed at 'others' isn't banter and could never be described as such.

'Banter' is James May calling JC a cock, or JC calling James 'captain slow' or picking on each others choice of cars, but making racist remarks about 'others'?

Opinion is one thing, but altering the meaning of a word in order to create a lie... That's not an opinion, it's either deluded or wilfully ignorant.

We don't need the courts to redefine what is 'acceptable banter', his employer ruled JC was out of order and gave him warnings. If he'd have thought a court might get him off the hook, he'd have followed that path.

....Okay, so you pounced on my use of the word 'banter' and have either twisted my words to suit your opinion or failed to really understand the principles behind what I wrote.

So what, this whole subject is a storm in a teacup and far worse things happen at sea.

As in any discussions which involve politics or religion, pre-judged opinions rarely change and so I'll not waste more time on such discussion and leave you to believe whatever you want. As far as I'm concerned, JC is basically a top bloke, has human weaknesses, and is not a racist by any stretch of the imagination. I don't expect anyone who is a lefty pc follower to like him - Who cares? They are entitled to their opinions.

 

[Cobra]

People in this country seem to think that only white Brits are racist (I hope I don't offend anyone by calling them/us whites or Brits)

Good post Mike.

And that's it isn't it?
I don't care care if I'm called limy Brit whitey Chalkie etc.

And at one time it wasn't PC to call people "Black" it had to be "coloured" now I see that's reverted too.
I Just wonder who decides what acceptable and what's not?
I wish they'd make there mind up who ever they areTBH !

 

[dejongj]

Apart from investigating the incident, pubically vilifying him in the press and refusing to renew his contract - quite a big difference from sweeping it under the rug and pretending it isnt happening a la saville

And rightfully so they investigated the incident. Not sure what else they should have done. JC reported it himself, his account and the producers and others who were there all agree and match. Don't see how they've public ally vilified him at all, did you listen to the DG when he came out with his statement? He was full of praise.

Refusing to renew suggests that someone has been requesting it? It is a rather dramatic interpretation and one that just doesn't coincide with what the DG has stated.

I'm not sure why you are so determined to aliking this to a case that happened many decades ago.

 

[Phil V]

1 This is how I see it. Whites get killed by blacks, but is not racist, but the other way around and the media are shouting racist attack before they know the facts. Is it anyone I have that view!!
2 Edited as soon as I saw the mistake

Again, Mike, it's a bit unspecific, which media? Because I like to have a pragmatic view of the world, and for every 'overly politically correct' idiot I come into contact with I can find a 'political correctness gone mad' idiot who thinks everyone should be left to self censor.

I don't see racial motivation every time I hear of a white person killing a black one, but nor do I ignore the idea that it's a possibility.

Which one of those is more dangerous:
Seeing a 'racial motive' where none exists?
Ignoring a 'racial motive' where it exists?

 

[big soft moose]

And rightfully so they investigated the incident. Not sure what else they should have done. JC reported it himself, his account and the producers and others who were there all agree and match. Don't see how they've public ally vilified him at all, did you listen to the DG when he came out with his statement? He was full of praise.

Refusing to renew suggests that someone has been requesting it? It is a rather dramatic interpretation and one that just doesn't coincide with what the DG has stated.

I'm not sure why you are so determined to aliking this to a case that happened many decades ago.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ior-BBC-boss-claims-Clarkson-like-Savile.html

Also i'm not 'aliking' the case to the saville affair - i'm ssaying it was dramatically different (which is the point that joke makes - abuse a whole load of kids and they do jacks***, shout at and possibly slap a producer and get suspended, liabled and fired )

 

[Cobra]

As far as I'm concerned, JC is basically a top bloke, has human weaknesses, and is not a racist by any stretch of the imagination

I see him more as a norty kid TBH, that keeps pushing the boundaries to get a re-action.
(I'm not knocking his style BTW)

When all is said and done, its evolved into a "Magazine programme" for men.
I bet it wouldn't be anywhere near as popular if it was hosted by someone like Richard Madeley

 

[Phil V]

....Okay, so you pounced on my use of the word 'banter' and have either twisted my words to suit your opinion or failed to really understand the principles behind what I wrote.

So what, this whole subject is a storm in a teacup and far worse things happen at sea.

As in any discussions which involve politics or religion, pre-judged opinions rarely change and so I'll not waste more time on such discussion and leave you to believe whatever you want. As far as I'm concerned, JC is basically a top bloke, has human weaknesses, and is not a racist by any stretch of the imagination. I don't expect anyone who is a lefty pc follower to like him - Who cares? They are entitled to their opinions.

Robin. Your whole 'description' of the situation is based around the word being 'harmless banter' when it's a racial slur, I'm not picking on a facet, that was your whole defence of him. The principal is simple, if me and my mates are sat in a pub having a laugh, and I'm taking this p*** out of him and referring to his disability, and he's having a go at my sexuality - that's banter. If we're sat around slagging off black people - that's racist. It's not a tricky concept.

And I'm on the fence here. As I keep saying, I enjoyed watching him, I'm not after burning him at the stake, but there comes a point where someone misbehaves too many times and they get punished. It's not a massive moral debate.

I'm well aware 'worse things happen at sea' but I've also got mates who have appeared in court for less, so lets keep a sense of perspective from both sides.

 

[Raptor Mike]

I'm interested in the cars, not half as much as if it was bikes though. But tbh I watched it cos it had me, and wife (@Cobra you sexist lol) in absolute stitches. The ambulance one made us laugh so much I was in pain.

 

[fracster]

IDGAF to be perfectly honest.

 

[Cobra]

(@Cobra you sexist lol)

LOL quite possibly

 

[big soft moose]

And at one time it wasn't PC to call people "Black" it had to be "coloured" now I see that's reverted too.
!

I think thats probably because black people themselves decided to embrace that description - black rage, black pride and so forth - sowhat if its not absolutely accurate, so Black people are actually dark brown - white people are generally pale pink.

IMO the basic problem is people geting offended on behalf of others - If someone calls a black bloke a nigger and he gets upset fair enough, but if someone whos white hears another white using the term why are they offended ?

People are generally too easily offened these days - like ewith this thread okay so not everyone likes the joke - fair play everyones different, but why launch the Waaahmbulance just bcause you differ about something .. adults tell off colour jokes, men (and indeed women) argue, shout at each other, use bad words and sometimes even resort to minor violence.. it doesnt make any of them monsters

 

[RedRobin]

Robin. Your whole 'description' of the situation is based around the word being 'harmless banter' when it's a racial slur, I'm not picking on a facet, that was your whole defence of him. The principal is simple, if me and my mates are sat in a pub having a laugh, and I'm taking this p*** out of him and referring to his disability, and he's having a go at my sexuality - that's banter. If we're sat around slagging off black people - that's racist. It's not a tricky concept.

....I guess that the difference in our opinions is that I personally don't have a problem with anyone having conversations which you would probably describe as racial slurs. Every single nation or group of people have typical characteristics which we are free to dislike, even intensely, or simply make fun of. For example :

The Scots are... [add whatever typical characteristic you want]
The French are...
The Germans are...
The Italians are...
The Jews are...
The Mexicans are...
Photographers are...
etc etc etc

Such descriptions merely reflect an individual's opinion whether you agree with their opinion or not. Actions including incitement rather than merely words said in jest against others on the basis of their race or nation, whether they are present or not, are obviously a different and more serious matter.

An interesting aspect of all this is whether pc-followers would say that if war is declared between two nations, propaganda vilifying the enemy is then racist However, this is a bit off-topic perhaps.

It all comes under having freedom of speech and freedom of thought and political correctness undermines that principle, in my not so humble opinion.

I am very against 'political correctness' and as Jeremy Clarkson appears to be a champion of that attitude (and that he's a petrolhead like me) I support him. I don't agree with absolutely everything he does but overall I like him and wish him well.

 

[cambsno]

I ahve seen/heard the N word used in many forms.. mostly as insult.. but a lot as a form of endearment between black people or in jokes... But I have never seen/heard the P word used in anything other than insulting..

Iirc there was a clothing line called paki?

When I was at college 20 years ago one of my mates (British born Asian) used to refer to himself as a paki and we all joked around with that, calling him that too. Think that was part of the fun at the time, think he used to enjoy people's reactions in public when we called him that!

 

[Raptor Mike]

First please excuse if spelling is wrong.
If you call an Afghan an Afghanistanie they get really offended. Stanie means lander. So Paki isn't really racist. Its not different than calling me English rather than Englander. Or than calling me a Brit. So it should be Pakistan-stani (Paki land lander) I think its classed as racist because no matter what discription you use people will find some way to get offended, like Cobra says in post 854.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong and no offence is intended in this post.

 

[Box Brownie]

In some if not all situations it is the context that is or should be the arbiter of whether offense was intentional or accidental. The whys and where for of anything are nothing without context, aren't they???

 

[dejongj]

First please excuse if spelling is wrong.
If you call an Afghan an Afghanistanie they get really offended. Stanie means lander. So Paki isn't really racist. Its not different than calling me English rather than Englander. Or than calling me a Brit. So it should be Pakistan-stani (Paki land lander) I think its classed as racist because no matter what discription you use people will find some way to get offended, like Cobra says in post 854.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong and no offence is intended in this post.

I used to think like that. However I've got enough friends from Pakistan origin to see and notice the effect it has. Yes I agree it should be nonsense but it isn't. I'd rather we focus on stealing the word back, but you know what in the mean time lets just not use it.

 

[Mr Bump]

Wow this thread/argument is still going

 

[Nod]

Mike, the derivation of Pakistan is different from that of the other 'stans so while the people from (say) Kurdistan are Kurds, those from Pakistan aren't.. well, you know the word! FWIW, the P, A, K are actually an acronym with the I being added to make it a nicer sounding word.

There's a bar just off the beach in Platanias, Western Crete which is called the Raki bar. However, in the Greek alphabet the letter R (rho) looks like a P, with the other letters being close enough to their Roman counterparts to be read easily.

 

[jakeblu]

Good post Mike.

And that's it isn't it?
I don't care care if I'm called limy Brit whitey Chalkie etc.

That's because those terms are not the language of subjugation slavery and bondage, its all about context Chris.

IMO the basic problem is people getting offended on behalf of others - If someone calls a black bloke a nigger and he gets upset fair enough, but if someone whos white hears another white using the term why are they offended ?

Its called empathy, an intrinsically human trait, although there is evidence that the great apes may exhibit it to some degree. Its the ability to take the perspective of another and to predict how they feel and how they might react given certain circumstances. All humans have it other than those with severe psychological personalities and those in the autism spectrum. Our early ancestors had it and it is believed to have conferred an evolutionary advantage.

Iirc there was a clothing line called paki?
When I was at college 20 years ago one of my mates (British born Asian) used to refer to himself as a paki and we all joked around with that, calling him that too. Think that was part of the fun at the time, think he used to enjoy people's reactions in public when we called him that!

The term Paki when joking around with your mates does not hold the same connotations as "fcuk of home you paki b@st@rd" while sticking the boot in. Its all to do with context.

 

[Cobra]

That's because those terms are not the language of subjugation slavery and bondage, its all about context Chris.

I see what you are saying Steve, but that can also be read as we now have to alter our language, in an apologetic way, because of something that happened outside living memory.

The term Paki when joking around with your mates does not hold the same connotations as "fcuk of home you paki b@st@rd" while sticking the boot in. Its all to do with context.

Again I agree, years ago, when the trading laws were much tighter and the hours were much shorter, the Indians and Pakistani's use to flout the law, with their so called corner shops, and stay open very late.
And indeed on a Sunday too.

I'd often nip up the Indi or Paki shop if I'd run out of "something"
That wasn't used as a derogatory term in the slightest,
more a thank f*** they are just around the corner as I need beer fags etc ec.

 

[Raptor Mike]

Again, Mike, it's a bit unspecific, which media? Because I like to have a pragmatic view of the world, and for every 'overly politically correct' idiot I come into contact with I can find a 'political correctness gone mad' idiot who thinks everyone should be left to self censor.

I don't see racial motivation every time I hear of a white person killing a black one, but nor do I ignore the idea that it's a possibility.

Which one of those is more dangerous:
Seeing a 'racial motive' where none exists?
Ignoring a 'racial motive' where it exists?

Sorry I missed this post. Its on the news, BBC to be precise, all the time.

 

[Raptor Mike]

I'm not going to get into it any more Phil because I wouldn't want to unintentionally offend anyone.

 

[Laudrup]

You're having a laugh! Have another look at what I said

You said:

"in my 'opinion' the N word used in any context by a white middle aged well connected bloke is racist."

That is quite clearly a nonsensical statement.

 

[Phil V]

You said:

"in my 'opinion' the N word used in any context by a white middle aged well connected bloke is racist."

That is quite clearly a nonsensical statement.

And you picked up on the white?
And clearly there's subjugation implicit in the fact he's a mate of the prime minister. He's not some unintelligent oik without influence, he's what you might refer to as 'the ruling class'.

So nothing at all to do with the colour of his skin, which is the bit you pounced on because it creates the modern simplistic 'mock outrage', try to have a think instead of a reaction. The country could do with it.

 

[Laudrup]

Your still not making your point very clear. What is it exactly that the liberal lefties at the BBC have done to constrain top gear presenters? All the complaints about top gear controversies haven't come from the BBC but external sources. It was ofcom that upheld the 'slope' incident and chastised the BBC for letting through their editorial process. The BBC was well aware that term had double meaning because in their defence they claimed it was 'mere slang.'

Personally I find it difficult to get riled up by Clarkson but I do wonder sometimes who I find the most amusing. The mindless morons who find Clarkson funny and hang on every word he says or the lefties who are oh so easily offended by his rants. Honestly he gets paid lots of money to spout this drivel, or did anyway. He's paid to be controversial and he is just acting to character. While he may be some right wing Tory boys wet dream really no decent leftie should ever take him seriously enough to be offended.

Well given you accept the premise it is run by liberal lefties then the output will have to go through liberal lefties watering it down. They did the same thing with Mock the Week so much that the best comedian left and Danny Cohen wants a quota of unfunny women on the panels to appeal to PC zealots. Most BBC shows are lame because the people in charge want inoffensive shows to talk down to idiots.

 

[arclight]

You said:

"in my 'opinion' the N word used in any context by a white middle aged well connected bloke is racist."

That is quite clearly a nonsensical statement.

Correct 100% - example:-
Nigger was Guy Gibson's black lab.
Nigger is buried at the 617 sqn. base (at the time) at RAF Scampton and has a memorial stone with his name on it.
Nigger was the code word transmitted to indicate a successful breach of the Moehne dam.

 

[Steep]

Correct 100% - example:-
Nigger was Guy Gibson's black lab.
Nigger is buried at the 617 sqn. base (at the time) at RAF Scampton and has a memorial stone with his name on it.
Nigger was the code word transmitted to indicate a successful breach of the Moehne dam.

Different times different values the dog was called nigger because it was black. Nigger was still a derogatory term for a black person even then, just because it was in more general use doesn't make it less so.
That said my feeling on racist terms is it's all in the intent, if you use a word intending it to be racist then it is regardless of what the word is but some words have always been racist and in most circumstances cannot be understood as anything else.

 

[Blank_Canvas]

I realty think we are just going around and around in circles now.....