The Football Thread - Season 2011/2012

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dinners said:
Unfortunately Joe, LFC should have just kept quiet. What they've done couldn't be any further from Commendable. From what I can gather even some of the players were less than comfortable with the whole T-Shirt fiasco.

As far as the message they've put out to the public - Liverpool fans might be getting all loved up over it but the general feeling from the public is that LFC have dropped a right clanger and nothing they are doing is helping either the player's case or indeed the reputation of the club.
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Well I couldn't disagree more and I have seen no evidence to support what you are saying either. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.
 
joescrivens said:
Well I couldn't disagree more and I have seen no evidence to support what you are saying either. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.
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Agreed Joe

I like you have no evidence. The only people party to the evidence are those that found him guilty. That's the key thing here - he's been found guilty.

Like it or lump it, that's the outcome, and people have looked to LFC to 'respond' in a manner that (for football's sake) responds in a suitable manner.

Instead, LFC (without even having the facts of the case yet) have stupidly rushed in and backed the poor guy (in a cringeworthy fashion) rather than sensibly waiting till they've the details to hand.

That's why the world and his wife are bemused and somewhat shocked by LFC's behaviour.

A general view...........(swiped)

My new T-shirt should be under the Christmas tree. I've asked Santa for one with the silhouette of a Premier League manager on it and the words 'blind', 'dumb' and 'irresponsible' printed underneath.

It's my protest against the protests. My stand against the embarrassing displays of boorishness and the idiotic, infantile statements made by men who are certainly intelligent enough to know better. Men like Kenny Dalglish and Andre Villas-Boas, for instance.

Shamefully, this duo's reaction to racism scandals involving players at their respective clubs has served to demonstrate football stands shoulder-to-shoulder in any campaign to eradicate racism within the game - unless it might inconveniently involve one of their own.

Then it's a witch-hunt, political posturing, a co-ordinated vendetta or the result of some other cockamamie conspiracy theory. And principles that should be enshrined for the greater good of the game are trampled underfoot in the mad rush of tribalism. What on earth were Liverpool Football Club thinking when they traipsed out in those pathetic screen-printed tops in support of Luis Suarez this week?

The Uruguayan had been banned by the Football Association for eight games for calling Patrice Evra a 'little black man' during a squabble on the pitch.

Suarez himself admitted he made the remark, yet argued it would be considered inoffensive in his native South America. So what? Ignorance isn't a justifiable defence and saying 'little black man' is not a purely descriptive phrase, as some at Liverpool have laughably attempted to argue.

It is a remark designed to belittle and demean and, in that context, it is racist language.

Moreover, Suarez hasn't just stepped off a plane from Montevideo. He joined Ajax in the Dutch league in 2007 so has - or should have - a grasp of what is, and what is not, acceptable outside of South America.

The FA's ban is harsh - but at least they sent out a message that these issues will be taken seriously and dealt with accordingly.

We saw Dalglish thinks otherwise. He led the puerile protests, even conducting television interviews in the cheap, rebellious Save Our Suarez clobber. Is this really what Liverpool FC is about - crusading for a footballer's right to call a fellow professional a 'little black man'?

I think not. It was self-interested rabble rousing of the unthinking kind. Liverpool is known as a club with a tradition of conducting itself with dignity, a reputation enhanced by the manner in which it dealt with the traumas of Hillsborough, thanks in no small part to the way Dalglish himself led the way.

But as statements go, this juvenile display was more in keeping with Rick from The Young Ones than an historic, global sporting institution.

Past custodians of Liverpool's image, like former chief executive and boardroom manipulator Peter Robinson, would surely have counselled against what occurred at Anfield, carefully steering the club away from such asinine exhibitionism. The current American owners should have shown some leadership with a quiet word.

As for Dalglish's teenage tweet that Suarez would 'never walk alone', that depends on the audience. If Suarez happens to find himself accompanied by a gaggle of small black men, I'd say he might find himself very much alone.

Liverpool are better than this. I find it hard to believe there were not fans of the club who felt genuine discomfort on seeing the T-shirt parade, or has football become so blindly tribal now that all good sense has been lost?

Best not ask Andre Villas-Boas for an objective view on racism in football. Chelsea have not been so crass as to print off 'JT is Innocent' shirts, but the manager has often been gushingly tactless in his comments about John Terry.

The England (yes, still) and Chelsea captain discovered he will face prosecution over allegations that he racially abused Anton Ferdinand at Loftus Road and is to appear at West London Magistrates' Court on February 1.

My own position on Terry has been consistently expressed on this page. To me, his explanation that he was only repeating a phrase denying he called Ferdinand 'a f****** black ****' appears to have more holes in it than The Beatles found in Blackburn, Lancashire, but the court will establish his guilt or innocence.

In the meantime, the honourable and decent thing for Terry to do would be to relinquish the captaincy of his country pending the outcome of the court case. Unsurprisingly, he has declined this option.

However, Villas-Boas's insistence that he 'will be fully supportive of JT whatever the outcome' of the court case is wilfully provocative.

So was the manager's boast that Terry's 'performances, commitment and concentration have increased since the incident' at Queens Park Rangers. Yep, there's nothing like a racism storm to focus the mind.

I find it particularly galling to read nausea-inducing twaddle that Terry is 'heroically' battling on as this scandal continues. He is continuing to do his job, no more, no less, and somewhat patchily too on the available evidence.

In many walks of life he would be suspended on full pay pending the outcome of the case, so he can consider himself fortunate to still be granted the opportunity to be beating his bare chest in front of a cheering crowd.

And we will be able to establish how 'heroic' he was if he is subsequently cleared completely of all charges.

But these issues should not be divided on club lines. They need to be addressed sensibly - which leads me on to Ian Wright. Thankfully, the former Arsenal striker proves you don't have to have a blind allegiance to a club or a cause to be misinformed.

On the Suarez decision, he declared: 'As it is, this could be said to have opened the way for any black player who might have an axe to grind to accuse others in a similar way (to Evra) - and that sets a very dangerous precedent indeed.'

Ah, that's better. Unbiased stupidity. It does exist.

Football is a wonderful sport and has the capacity to bring people together. But, contradictorily, when it comes to recrimination and poisonous hate the game has also been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

Amid all the noise and incessant fury, it pays to accept there are times when your club, players and fans might be in the wrong. And to remember a conscience should not come in club colours.

Don't shoot me (the messenger) if you think I'm giving Suarez a hard time because I'm not. I'll be the first to admit that what Suarez did was a 'molehill' but unfortunately the 'mountain' is growing and it's all down to Dalglish, LFC and the childish way they've handled the whole sorry episode.
 
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tiler65 said:
Liverpool United.....have I missed something Joe

I must admit there are some great gags about all of this, doing the rounds at the moment, just what is needed at this time of year.

If Suarez would have said, after the incident, 'I called Evra a so & so but did not realise it was ethically wrong in this country' I reckon he would not have been charged at all.
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That's nonsense. He admitted to using a term not even considered offensive in his culture in response to an obvious insult in Spanish. Based on what Evra admitted to calling him I think was quite restrained.
 
dinners said:
Agreed Joe

I like you have no evidence. The only people party to the evidence are those that found him guilty. That's the key thing here - he's been found guilty.

Like it or lump it, that's the outcome, and people have looked to LFC to 'respond' in a manner that (for football's sake) responds in a suitable manner.

Instead, LFC (without even having the facts of the case yet) have stupidly rushed in and backed the poor guy (in a cringeworthy fashion) rather than sensibly waiting till they've the details to hand.

That's why the world and his wife are bemused and somewhat shocked by LFC's behaviour.

A general view...........(swiped)

My new T-shirt should be under the Christmas tree. I've asked Santa for one with the silhouette of a Premier League manager on it and the words 'blind', 'dumb' and 'irresponsible' printed underneath.

It's my protest against the protests. My stand against the embarrassing displays of boorishness and the idiotic, infantile statements made by men who are certainly intelligent enough to know better. Men like Kenny Dalglish and Andre Villas-Boas, for instance.

Shamefully, this duo's reaction to racism scandals involving players at their respective clubs has served to demonstrate football stands shoulder-to-shoulder in any campaign to eradicate racism within the game - unless it might inconveniently involve one of their own.

Then it's a witch-hunt, political posturing, a co-ordinated vendetta or the result of some other cockamamie conspiracy theory. And principles that should be enshrined for the greater good of the game are trampled underfoot in the mad rush of tribalism. What on earth were Liverpool Football Club thinking when they traipsed out in those pathetic screen-printed tops in support of Luis Suarez this week?

The Uruguayan had been banned by the Football Association for eight games for calling Patrice Evra a 'little black man' during a squabble on the pitch.

Suarez himself admitted he made the remark, yet argued it would be considered inoffensive in his native South America. So what? Ignorance isn't a justifiable defence and saying 'little black man' is not a purely descriptive phrase, as some at Liverpool have laughably attempted to argue.

It is a remark designed to belittle and demean and, in that context, it is racist language.

Moreover, Suarez hasn't just stepped off a plane from Montevideo. He joined Ajax in the Dutch league in 2007 so has - or should have - a grasp of what is, and what is not, acceptable outside of South America.

The FA's ban is harsh - but at least they sent out a message that these issues will be taken seriously and dealt with accordingly.

We saw Dalglish thinks otherwise. He led the puerile protests, even conducting television interviews in the cheap, rebellious Save Our Suarez clobber. Is this really what Liverpool FC is about - crusading for a footballer's right to call a fellow professional a 'little black man'?

I think not. It was self-interested rabble rousing of the unthinking kind. Liverpool is known as a club with a tradition of conducting itself with dignity, a reputation enhanced by the manner in which it dealt with the traumas of Hillsborough, thanks in no small part to the way Dalglish himself led the way.

But as statements go, this juvenile display was more in keeping with Rick from The Young Ones than an historic, global sporting institution.

Past custodians of Liverpool's image, like former chief executive and boardroom manipulator Peter Robinson, would surely have counselled against what occurred at Anfield, carefully steering the club away from such asinine exhibitionism. The current American owners should have shown some leadership with a quiet word.

As for Dalglish's teenage tweet that Suarez would 'never walk alone', that depends on the audience. If Suarez happens to find himself accompanied by a gaggle of small black men, I'd say he might find himself very much alone.

Liverpool are better than this. I find it hard to believe there were not fans of the club who felt genuine discomfort on seeing the T-shirt parade, or has football become so blindly tribal now that all good sense has been lost?

Best not ask Andre Villas-Boas for an objective view on racism in football. Chelsea have not been so crass as to print off 'JT is Innocent' shirts, but the manager has often been gushingly tactless in his comments about John Terry.

The England (yes, still) and Chelsea captain discovered he will face prosecution over allegations that he racially abused Anton Ferdinand at Loftus Road and is to appear at West London Magistrates' Court on February 1.

My own position on Terry has been consistently expressed on this page. To me, his explanation that he was only repeating a phrase denying he called Ferdinand 'a f****** black ****' appears to have more holes in it than The Beatles found in Blackburn, Lancashire, but the court will establish his guilt or innocence.

In the meantime, the honourable and decent thing for Terry to do would be to relinquish the captaincy of his country pending the outcome of the court case. Unsurprisingly, he has declined this option.

However, Villas-Boas's insistence that he 'will be fully supportive of JT whatever the outcome' of the court case is wilfully provocative.

So was the manager's boast that Terry's 'performances, commitment and concentration have increased since the incident' at Queens Park Rangers. Yep, there's nothing like a racism storm to focus the mind.

I find it particularly galling to read nausea-inducing twaddle that Terry is 'heroically' battling on as this scandal continues. He is continuing to do his job, no more, no less, and somewhat patchily too on the available evidence.

In many walks of life he would be suspended on full pay pending the outcome of the case, so he can consider himself fortunate to still be granted the opportunity to be beating his bare chest in front of a cheering crowd.

And we will be able to establish how 'heroic' he was if he is subsequently cleared completely of all charges.

But these issues should not be divided on club lines. They need to be addressed sensibly - which leads me on to Ian Wright. Thankfully, the former Arsenal striker proves you don't have to have a blind allegiance to a club or a cause to be misinformed.

On the Suarez decision, he declared: 'As it is, this could be said to have opened the way for any black player who might have an axe to grind to accuse others in a similar way (to Evra) - and that sets a very dangerous precedent indeed.'

Ah, that's better. Unbiased stupidity. It does exist.

Football is a wonderful sport and has the capacity to bring people together. But, contradictorily, when it comes to recrimination and poisonous hate the game has also been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

Amid all the noise and incessant fury, it pays to accept there are times when your club, players and fans might be in the wrong. And to remember a conscience should not come in club colours.

Don't shoot me (the messenger) if you think I'm giving Suarez a hard time because I'm not. I'll be the first to admit that what Suarez did was a 'molehill' but unfortunately the 'mountain' is growing and it's all down to Dalglish, LFC and the childish way they've handled the whole sorry episode.
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Little black man in its literal English translation sounds like an obvious slur here, but it simply is not when spoken in a Spanish conversation. If you can't get your head around that I worry about you.

Liverpool are standing by Luis because mud sticks and papers like the mirror are bang out of order labelling him a racist.
 
You can repeat yourself all you like phil and even go and copy and paste someone's else's opinion but it doesn't make it fact. If you think the response was silly then that's your opinion. Mine is that it wasn't. But you seem to be talking about it like its fact.
 
The23rdman said:
That's nonsense. He admitted to using a term not even considered offensive in his culture in response to an obvious insult in Spanish. Based on what Evra admitted to calling him I think was quite restrained.
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Hearsay Dean, we do not know what was actually said yet and please take your Liverpool hat off for a moment.
 
joescrivens said:
You can repeat yourself all you like phil and even go and copy and paste someone's else's opinion but it doesn't make it fact. If you think the response was silly then that's your opinion. Mine is that it wasn't. But you seem to be talking about it like its fact.
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No, he has not talked about it like it's fact, he has just expressed his opinion and backed it up with a very well written article which, of course, is also opinion but his opinion has more credibility that your opinion...............in my opinion of course. ;)
 
fabs said:
No, he has not talked about it like it's fact, he has just expressed his opinion and backed it up with a very well written article which, of course, is also opinion but his opinion has more credibility that your opinion...............in my opinion of course. ;)
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You can't say someone else's opinion is more valid or has more credibility than another actually Marc, and you should know that as its exactly the kind of thing you would be saying to me.

Everyone's opinion is as valid as another's.
 
joescrivens said:
You can't say someone else's opinion is more valid or has more credibility than another actually Marc, and you should know that as its exactly the kind of thing you would be saying to me.

Everyone's opinion is as valid as another's.
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Read my post again Joe, I never used the word 'valid'. I said that his opinion had more credibility in my opinion.
 
Can we have some clarity form the debaters please? Yes or No answers only.

1. Should a player call another player a name referring to their race?

2. Should a guilty player publicly apologise and move on?

3. Should a guilty player's club accept a judging panel's verdict?

4. Is this race row an issue that happens all the time?

5. Should we be allowed to call each other what we want?

6. Is the John Terry incident worse?
 
fabs said:
Read my post again Joe, I never used the word 'valid'. I said that his opinion had more credibility in my opinion.
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read my post again, I also used the word credible.

Anyway, I have better things to do than argue with you about who's opinion you agree with or not, which is irrelevant anyway, it's christmas!!! I have ale to drink and family to spend time with! (y)(y)

Merry christmas to you :)
 
6: The John Terry incident is worse because he is British and has only ever lived and played here, so no "cultural" excuses for him. Plus he's the England captain and really should set an example. On the other hand, if he was really racist I'm guessing Didier and the boys might have sorted him out by this stage!:LOL:
 
Just another opinion on the LFC t-shirt issue...

What happens *if* when the evidence is released, it actually shows that there were racist and unacceptable comments made? Will LFC still back him in the same way? If so, does that not condone his actions?

Also, things seem to have got a bit twisted. I thought he has been punished for a racist remark, not for being a racist generally (yes, I actually think there is a difference...)?
 
joescrivens said:
read my post again, I also used the word credible.

Anyway, I have better things to do than argue with you about who's opinion you agree with or not, which is irrelevant anyway, it's christmas!!! I have ale to drink and family to spend time with! (y)(y)
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and I used the phrase 'in my opinion'.

joescrivens said:
Merry christmas to you :)
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Merry Christmas
 
rackhs said:
Just another opinion on the LFC t-shirt issue...

What happens *if* when the evidence is released, it actually shows that there were racist and unacceptable comments made? Will LFC still back him in the same way? If so, does that not condone his actions?
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That's the reason why LFC's actions have been so questionable.

Anyway - that's my lot on the whole unfortunate episode.
 
tiler65 said:
Can we have some clarity form the debaters please? Yes or No answers only.

1. Should a player call another player a name referring to their race?

2. Should a guilty player publicly apologise and move on?

3. Should a guilty player's club accept a judging panel's verdict?

4. Is this race row an issue that happens all the time?

5. Should we be allowed to call each other what we want?

6. Is the John Terry incident worse?
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If No. 1 is a 'punishable' question, then I bet most players (and us on the forum) have called someone a French/Scottish/German/'Insert anything else here' expletive - even under their breath while driving. Yet those terms are 'ok' to use? So ban everyone! We ALL use some form of stereotype or 'racist' term, but 99.9% of us do it in good humour - a lot of the banter between me and my best mate involves me calling him (a geordie) a mackem and poking fun at his 'race'.
 
Some good results (for United at least) amongst the top teams today.

Rubbish FF scores on my part though.
 
Actually it was good for both uniteds that played yesterday, and Newcastle aren't typically referred to as "united" are they?
 
Damn you Berbatov! I made Rooney my captain, and Berba scores 3! Git :p

Im really disappointed with Man City's result yesterday.
Like my friend said, it had draw written all over it. Annoying though, because we seem to have dropped in calibre over the past 6 weeks or so.
We should have given them at least a couple of net rattlers yesterday. I was on the edge of my seat shouting "For ****s sake, just go in the bloody net!" at the ball lol. Frustrating seeing so many attempts get so close.
Kudos for their defense though, they kept it out almost every time.
Balotelli's long range shot would have been an absolute beaut if it hadn't rattled the crossbar.

Ah well, I hope they go back in the dressing room and learn from this and get back to the really strong team they were 6 weeks ago.

I really do hope we can pull the Premiership out of the hat though. Would be great.
 
Could not believe the rubbish refs again yesterday. The Wigan sending off was a joke, no one aside from the ref thought it was a red while the everton penalty was a joke. Sure, we all make mistakes and refs will miss the odd thing but those 2 decisions were not mistakes, they were total incompetence. Yet they will be back again next week. Joke. Yet the FA are too weak to do anything.
 
I do think the sending off was a poor decision as you can tell by the reaction of the players, yes they complained about it being a foul but not to the extent of an elbow, even the crowd were not bellowing at the ref , which is usually the case in these situations.

The penalty call was a little more difficult for the ref as it is only in slow-mo that we realise that it is definitely not a trip.
 
tiler65 said:
The penalty call was a little more difficult for the ref as it is only in slow-mo that we realise that it is definitely not a trip.
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If we had the 4th official watching it on tv, he could have seen that in seconds, yet the FA still avoid technology.
 
Good result for Spurs too tonight after all the draws.

A few FF points for me too which was a bonus
 
So - tonight we have the 'good will to all men' that is the Old firm.

Should be good with just a point separating them.
 
Enjoyed the Liverpool V Newcastle game earlier tonight.

A shot and a free kick from Bellamy did wonders to mask the fact that Liverpool were just trying to lump it in to Andy Carroll all night long. Not really Liverpool.

I feel for Carroll (is it just me or does he fall over every time the ball comes near) but hey, Steven Gerrard is back and what a difference he made.

The 'Carroll' method was nothing short of painful to watch from a team like Liverpool and the look in his eyes after his miss when Gerrard put him clean through said it all.

The run from Gerrard for his goal was like a bolt of lightning compared to the plodding tactics that went before. Talk about leading by example. Fingers crossed he can put the whole injury thing behind him now. I can't help think back to Robson in his pomp when we needed that 'zip'.

Oh - and that tackle from the Newcastle player (on Spearing ?) was a shocker. As bad as the one Srearing was done one for.
 
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I was watching it with one eye on my laptop so not paying full attention but I didn't have the same impression with the long balls as you, in fact I didn't think caroll was getting enough of the ball, which was why he ran the whole length of the pitch to say as much to Johnson.

I thought up until the Newcastle goal Liverpool were just a bit flat but after the goal ey stepped up and dominated the game, particularly through Steve and Bellamy. A great win overall when we needed to keep the pressure on for 4th spot


dinners said:
.

Oh - and that tackle from the Newcastle player (on Spearing ?) was a shocker. As bad as the one Srearing was done one for.
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actually it was much worse
 
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I thought Caroll ran the length of the pitch (quite early on) to tell Johnson that he should be lumping the ball up to him.

Good to see that tackle on Spearing is getting some air play today. I can only imagine the ref didn't see it as it came in the aftermath of another challenge.

What did amaze me was (that until yesterday) Liverpool had only won 1 game that they had gone 0:1 behind in since 2009.

PS

United 0:1 down at half time today and Rooney not even on the bench. We could really do with the three points today.
 
From the text commentary on the BBC:

By the way, Manchester United have lost the last three Premier League home matches in which they have been behind at the break. :eek:
 
Eek - 3-2 to Blackburn.

Kean out ????
 
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I was prepared to be disappointed with a draw today ... but not that :|
Oh well, might have to sit with the blues in the local and cheer on the black cats tomorrow! :D
 
dinners said:
I thought Caroll ran the length of the pitch (quite early on) to tell Johnson that he should be lumping the ball up to him.
.
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That's what I said :thinking:

He wanted the ball up to him cos he wasn't getting it.

This weekend is shaping up nicely so far. Liverpool with a convincing win, man u lose to the bottom team at home, hopefully city can get three points tomorrow and restore a 3 point lead going into 2012.
 
joescrivens said:
That's what I said :thinking:

He wanted the ball up to him cos he wasn't getting it.

This weekend is shaping up nicely so far. Liverpool with a convincing win, man u lose to the bottom team at home, hopefully city can get three points tomorrow and restore a 3 point lead going into 2012.
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Isn't it a bit soon for the annual switch from Liverppol fan to ABU fan Joe ?

I'd have thought you wanted City to loose ?
 
dinners said:
Isn't it a bit soon for the annual switch from Liverppol fan to ABU fan Joe ?

I'd have thought you wanted City to loose ?
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There's no switch. I co-exist as a Liverpool and ABU fan all year round :LOL:
 
Happy birthday sir Alex, You look great for 70 in fact you dont look a day over 3-2.

Lol
 
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