Who thinks DSLR / Mirrorles and equipment is complicated

[myotis]

Indeed.

And just like a complicated modern camera you don't have to use, or even know about, all features unless you want/need to. Whereas a film camera can't even do movies.

But, they work better without a battery

 

[Phil V]

I think you are muck stirring!

I think you’re reading too hard between the lines.
That post was purely about smartphones.

I chose to ignore some earlier nonsense about how film photography is pure and simple

You dangled a hook and I failed to fall for it. Sorry to disappoint

 

[Ed Sutton]

But, they work better without a battery

Not all of them.

 

[woof woof]

Modern phones aren’t phones.

Whether they should be ‘just phones’ is a whole other discussion.

But my phone is 90% of all my computer use - soc media, research, shopping, messaging. 50% of my photography. 95% of my music, 100% of my gaming. Also tells me how my car is, Sat Nav, I can control my dishwasher and cooker with it (I don’t)

Would it be better if it was just a phone? What would I need adding? Messaging? Simple games? Camera? Browser? How much before I’m back here?

BTW the music player is the bit I couldn’t live without. I went from a hifi to a Walkman, to a car stereo as my most used music player - and here I am with my music collection in my pocket, and I can play it through a large amp and speakers, car stereo, headphones and Bluetooth/ HomePods so I have my music everywhere however I want.

So, in conclusion: if this was only a phone, I’d need a music player tomorrow to replace it. And I’d probably go out and buy a compact camera shortly too. But I wouldn’t buy a games machine and I already have a laptop.

I wouldn't know where to start to do any of this stuff.

 

[myotis]

Not all of them.

True, but ...

"They work better without. a battery excpt for those that don't". didn't sound as humorous.

 

[Phil V]

I wouldn't know where to start to do any of this stuff.

This is interesting
What do you play your music on?

What do you use to browse the web? Soc media?

I’ll assume you don’t play games?

And I’ll assume you don’t have smart home appliances

 

[ancient_mariner]

I think you are muck stirring!

Phil would never do that!

But I think his post comes from genuine experience and use. Many people who only use a computer for infotainment could make do fine with a modern phone + mouse, keyboard and screen. Many under 30 need nothing else.

This phone has 8/256GB storage, which is more than many laptops at >twice the price I paid. On holiday it's my WiFi router, digital notepad, translator, navigation tool and browser. The camera gets occasional use, although not for anything serious. I've recently started using 5G, and data transfer is really fast, though it does drop battery life.

 

[ancient_mariner]

This is interesting
What do you play your music on?

What do you use to browse the web? Soc media?

I’ll assume you don’t play games?

And I’ll assume you don’t have smart home appliances

Music - ripped CDs in the car from an SD card, or the original CDs. I do still have my vinyl but no deck at the moment. I also make my own.

I will never want smart home appliances.

Gaming is something I stopped more than a decade ago.

 

[Rodinal]

Modern phones aren’t phones.

Whether they should be ‘just phones’ is a whole other discussion.

But my phone is 90% of all my computer use - soc media, research, shopping, messaging. 50% of my photography. 95% of my music, 100% of my gaming. Also tells me how my car is, Sat Nav, I can control my dishwasher and cooker with it (I don’t)

When you at a a more advanced age, closer to mine, you will come to realise that sadly your eyesight deteriorates -fact!, Then the relatively small screen on a 'phone is not all that easy to use. In fact it is sodding useless unless I wear reading glasses. There is more to life than squinting at something slightly larger than a book of 1st class stamps and trying to work out what is written or displayed without enlarging it to a size where it is legible, but only seeing a fraction of the content whether it is a picture or a message, then you will appreciate something slightly larger.

In addition having quite large hands like I do, and at the same time possessing fingers which were the prototype for the size of the best Cumberland sausages, you too may appreciate that typing a message can be a bit of a gamble what actually appears on the message. I have to use a rubber tipped type of pen to get it accurate quickly. The tip of either of my fore fingers will cover 3 letters at a a time

My phone does have an in-built sat nav. Why do I want one in my 'phone which is too small to see without picking it up and risking a fine and points if seen. Well, my car has a perfectly adequate satnav with a lovely 7" screen that is perfectly visible from the drivers seat coupled with clear recorded instructions.
I also have one on my motorcycle with a smaller screen, but directly below my field of vision without having to turn my head. There are also spoken instructions which are no use what so ever, because when wearing a helmet you cannot hear them anyway. Plus it is 100% waterproof which on a motorcycle is essential, a facility I doubt that a mobile phone possesses. You can get waterproof cases for them but they usually restrict what you can see.

My Android phone is used only for contacting people and actually speaking to fellow humans. Yes I am human, (despite coming from the NE of England) or sending text messages to be picked up later if the intended recipient(s) are not available. All the other added bits and pieces plumbed into the phone are just clutter and actually bore me silly, and are of no use to me what so ever.

 

[ancient_mariner]

When you at a a more advanced age, closer to mine, you will come to realise that sadly your eyesight deteriorates -fact!,

You might be surprised how many of us are approaching your age.

 

[woof woof]

This is interesting
What do you play your music on?

What do you use to browse the web? Soc media?

I’ll assume you don’t play games?

And I’ll assume you don’t have smart home appliances

I have hifi separates both downstairs and upstairs. I play singles and LP's, my 78's have been recorded onto CD as I don't have a player which will play 78's any more. I have a huge number of CD's too. I'm not really into social media but I do read stuff on X and occasionally comment on there and on Youtube camera reviews and the like. Banking, shopping and emails, general browsing and this site are looked at on a lap top on which I do my photography and I also have a tablet which cost under £100 on which I use WhatsApp every day to talk to Mrs WW as she's in Thailand for 6 months. I do have a smartphone. I think it's the 3rd I've bought but I only grudgingly bought it because my PAYG supplier told me my old one probably wouldn't work when they did their next update. I have a contract now which costs about £9 a month and the phone is used as my phone as it's cheaper than the landline now. I have no interest at all in computer games and have never owned a games console. I have no idea if I have smart appliances or not but I doubt it. My newest car is 9 years old and it does have sat nav with a posh sounding ladies voice but if I'm going somewhere new I look at a map and occasionally look at "AA directions." I then write down my route on a piece of paper.

Apart from camera gear I'm a bit of a technophobe now. I worked in computers for years first as a bench and then as a field engineer and then looking after contracts and TBH I got sick of the sight of them and wider tech so I left. I worked for a further 12 years for a group of manufacturing companies and then walked away at the age of 49 and I have actively avoided tech ever since, now aged 63, so that's 14 years since I "retired." When anyone starts talking phones or tablets or games I go to my happy place until they stop talking. I should really take and interest but TBH I just can't summon up any So when I say I wouldn't know where to start it's true because I've actively avoided most tech for years. Even when I used to fix computers my interest in them always stopped when I got them working. At home I think they dominate rooms which is why I have a lap top as when it's not in use it's closed and put out of sight.

Mrs WW takes the Michael out of me for all this tech avoidance but I don't care When I get anything new she takes it off me and fills it with apps which she says I'll need but when she goes to bed I delete them all.

 

[Rodinal]

You might be surprised how many of us are approaching your age.

You will understand my feelings then.
I grew up and lived in an era where we had to think for ourselves or do without and that has done me in good stead for the majority of my working life. As for so called social media it is an absolute scourge and should never have seen the light of day! It may help many but the harm it does to others is inexcusable and the hosts do precious little to stop it.

 

[Rodinal]

Woof Woof

To answer the questions about

What do you play your music on?

What do you use to browse the web? Soc media?

I’ll assume you don’t play games?

And I’ll assume you don’t have smart home appliances

I don't use any except a lap top or desk top to look on the web and Emails. Furthermore, I have also so far managed to persuade the utilities company that I don't need or want a smart meter. It won't save me money which is what they claim it will do, because what ever meter I have, if in the winter, if I am cold I will turn the heating on just the same as I do now.
If they suddenly advised me or the other customers that fitting a meter will result in a 10% or more, cut in the cost of electricity or gas I may think again.. But that is unlikely to happen soon.

 

[Plain Nev]

Furthermore, I have also so far managed to persuade the utilities company that I don't need or want a smart meter. It won't save me money which is what they claim it will do, because what ever meter I have if in the winter, if I am cold I will turn the heating on just the same as I do now.
If they suddenly advised me or the other customers that fitting a meter will result in a 10% or more, cut in the cost of electricity or gas I may think again.. But that is unlikely to happen soon.

Ah, you confused them with logic.

 

[Phil V]

You will understand my feelings then.
I grew up and lived in an era where we had to think for ourselves or do without and that has done me in good stead for the majority of my working life.

It’s also possible to be of advanced years without becoming this jaded.

Each generation and each strata of society has a different experience and that drives a different world view. And each of us individually have a different personality that also colours that.

But back on topic: For instance my photography has never been about me photographing things. I photograph people and pursuits, so I need gear that reacts as quickly as me or better. I have no desire to photograph something that’ll sit and wait for me. HCB’s ‘decisive moment’ was an early driver of my passion.

And my eyesight started to deteriorate in my 30’s, which is a very long time ago. But my varifocals allow me to manage my life using screens excellently.

Social media has its upsides as well as its downs.

 

[droj]

How real is digital tech - or more fully, how real is its media content? To extend the query backwards, how real is an image on film? Is anything virtual real? What is the nature of consciousness? What counts as reality? The query is serious.

 

[Phil V]

If they suddenly advised me or the other customers that fitting a meter will result in a 10% or more, cut in the cost of electricity or gas I may think again.. But that is unlikely to happen soon.

You ought to do some research. Because the dumb meter in your home can’t tell the time and charges you the same price 24hrs a day.

Whereas a smart meter allows different tariffs opening up the prospect of cheaper night time electricity.

But feel free to hold onto your mistaken belief you’re the smart one

 

[droj]

Whereas a smart meter allows different tariffs opening up the prospect of cheaper night time electricity.

Economy 7 & other schemes allowed that electro-mechanically. Come on, Phil.

 

[Plain Nev]

You ought to do some research. Because the dumb meter in your home can’t tell the time and charges you the same price 24hrs a day.

Whereas a smart meter allows different tariffs opening up the prospect of cheaper night time electricity.

But feel free to hold onto your mistaken belief you’re the smart one

Well, according to our energy supplier our meter is controlled by radio broadcasts which tells it when to change the rate. You could be right, because that's news to me. I always sort of assumed that the rate would be governed according to the time of day, or why would they have both day and night time rates on it?

 

[Phil V]

Economy 7 & other schemes allowed that electro-mechanically. Come on, Phil.

They did; but they weren’t universal. Whereas anyone with a smart meter is entitled to cheap overnight electricity to wash their pots, do their laundry and charge their car. My mate even charges batteries in his loft he uses to run his home during the day, whilst his solar panels are earning daytime rates

 

[Phil V]

Well, according to our energy supplier our meter is controlled by radio broadcasts which tells it when to change the rate. You could be right, because that's news to me. I always sort of assumed that the rate would be governed according to the time of day, or why would they have both day and night time rates on it?

A dumb meter, not fitted with extra mechanics for economy 7 just counts the number of KwH you use. An economy 7 meter has 2 seperate readings dependent on the time. IIRC economy 7 meters were installed in less than 10% of homes, mostly with homes that were heated by storage heaters.

A smart meter does the latter electronically allowing all of us to save money overnight (it’s more than 10%)

 

[woof woof]

How real is digital tech - or more fully, how real is its media content? To extend the query backwards, how real is an image on film? Is anything virtual real? What is the nature of consciousness? What counts as reality? The query is serious.

I went through a phase of reading a lot about consciousness, psychology, human condition, quantum mechanics. It's interesting but I don't think you'll find any ultimate answers any more valid than 42 maybe because no one knows. In fact maybe the more you research the more questions you'll have.

 

[Kell]

I have Canon, my wife has Nikon often I can't help her with stuff as I have no clue or desire to learn Nikon, this can also apply to PC vs Mac.

As I have been using Canon and PC for decades I know my way around and CBA to learn stuff for gear I don't own/use.

That keeps it as simple as it can be for me LOL, but learning never ends and I have plenty more to do just with my stuff.

I don't think they are over-complicated on the whole, it's the initial knowing what settings do and how to set things to what you are trying to accomplish that can be a bit overwhelming.

Regardless of anything tech-wise, being in the right place at the right time and getting the framing right is much harder to do I feel.

I went on holiday with a mate of mine who shoots Nikon and I picked up his camera to take a pic of him and his wife and I couldn’t take a picture.

No idea if it was stuck in a menu or something, but everything that would natural to me as a Canon shooter didn’t work.

Put it down. Didn’t get a shot away.

 

[droj]

I went through a phase of reading a lot about consciousness, psychology, human condition, quantum mechanics. It's interesting but I don't think you'll find any ultimate answers any more valid than 42 maybe because no one knows. In fact maybe the more you research the more questions you'll have.

Indeed - we all inhabit a conceptual soup!

 

[Rodinal]

It’s also possible to be of advanced years without becoming this jaded.

Each generation and each strata of society has a different experience and that drives a different world view. And each of us individually have a different personality that also colours that.

But back on topic: For instance my photography has never been about me photographing things. I photograph people and pursuits, so I need gear that reacts as quickly as me or better. I have no desire to photograph something that’ll sit and wait for me. HCB’s ‘decisive moment’ was an early driver of my passion.

And my eyesight started to deteriorate in my 30’s, which is a very long time ago. But my varifocals allow me to manage my life using screens excellently.

Social media has its upsides as well as its downs.

I don't think I am jaded infact that is almost an offensive remark because you have never met me and unlikely to.

I base my life on the standards that I was taught and attempt to adhere to. We all have our differences and for me is the way technology is becoming the great god that rules our lives. Essentially it is technology that is responsible for the demise and disappearance of the banking which is essential to the small customers who do not count on them for anything else than taking the monthly income making a profit out of it with investments and and not (usually) giving us anything in return for our current accounts. Human nature means we are all just a little too trusting. Technology is just too complicated for the elderly to easily and fully understand. Although I am approaching that age, I think I have a little more than an inkling what can happen and how to avoid problems. In the main don't use it!

It is the rise of computerisation that has given the oxygen of life to the massive increase year on year of scams, fraudulently taking money out of accounts by deceit and lies. That is one reason I also decline to use on line banking. Apart from not trusting others to look after my money. I don't really trust myself not to tick the wrong box or press the wrong key.

It came to light just over a week ago when a good proportion of the worlds computer system went down following a faulty update of some security system by a company I had never heard of, It showed just how fragile the internet is, and although this appears to be a genuine mistake, it should be a wake up call (but won't be), it is a damn good blueprint for the likes of China and Russia and a few others to copy from.

 

[droj]

I went on holiday with a mate of mine who shoots Nikon and I picked up his camera to take a pic of him and his wife and I couldn’t take a picture.

No idea if it was stuck in a menu or something, but everything that would natural to me as a Canon shooter didn’t work.

Put it down. Didn’t get a shot away.

Canon users should be barred by law from even touching anything Nikon! Imprisoned for blasphemy, even. Indeed and on the other hand, if a Nikon user should let a Canon user touch anything Nikon, that should deserve a community service order for that Nikon user, at least.

Equipment can be easily tainted. Sterilisation &/or fumigation might be often necessary. I can hardly imagine the internal conflict inherent in someone who's ended up owning both brands. That's psychiatric material.

 

[Kell]

Canon users should be barred by law from even touching anything Nikon! Imprisoned for blasphemy, even.

Absolutely right. Don’t want to leave much better images on their memory cards.

They’d only have to try and explain them.

 

[Plain Nev]

A dumb meter, not fitted with extra mechanics for economy 7 just counts the number of KwH you use. An economy 7 meter has 2 seperate readings dependent on the time. IIRC economy 7 meters were installed in less than 10% of homes, mostly with homes that were heated by storage heaters.

A smart meter does the latter electronically allowing all of us to save money overnight (it’s more than 10%)

Ah, that would be it then. We do have storage heaters.

 

[droj]

Don’t want to leave much better images on their memory cards.

Now better in what sense would that be, then? Better dynamic range? Conceptually superior?

 

[woof woof]

Now better in what sense would that be, then? Better dynamic range? Conceptually superior?

I think there are (at least) two ways we can assess "better" including the technicalities which will include DR and even things such as framing and there's the engagement / stir the soul aspect.

 

[droj]

We do have storage heaters.

That's modern - I still use a Bakelite telephone with a circular dial (& grew up in a septic tank ...)

 

[Rodinal]

They did; but they weren’t universal. Whereas anyone with a smart meter is entitled to cheap overnight electricity to wash their pots, do their laundry and charge their car. My mate even charges batteries in his loft he uses to run his home during the day, whilst his solar panels are earning daytime rates

At night I go to sleep!
I do not do laundry washing, washing my pots, charging my car I (intensely dislike electric vehicles) so my benefits are going to be minimal All non essential electrical items are shut off because they can be a potential fire risk if unattended.
Apart from the fact that my partner's house is only 5 years old and her 'fitted from new' meters have never worked from day 1 and they cannot get them to do so.

Don't get me started on electrical vehicles being the cure for global warming. I do worry about what may happen if there is a fault Yes it may benefit us but countries that mine the lithium and convert it into usable power packs and then put it into a car certainly don't contribute to controlling pollution that leads to global warming. Unless you have not noticed we are not in an isolated bubble where if we clean up our act the whole world will be a better place. The UK as a whole only contributes around 1.1 to 1.3% of the total pollution.

Probably the biggest polluters of all are humans everywhere in general. Not in what they do, just from being just alive. The World Health Organisation has calculated that each and every man woman and child creates about 1kg of carbon dioxide per day just by breathing. As there are around about 8 Billion of us that will create 8 billion kilo's of CO2 per day just to stay alive. Multiply that by 365 days a year, cumulatively the figure is truly staggering at 2 billion, 9 hundred and 20 million tonnes of Co2 per year which is greater than the whole of china. It is no wonder that the production of CO2 is far more than in the days of the Industrial revolution without even counting in all that we do and have done over the years post the Industrial revolution.

 

[Erty]

I've got a D100 and the user interface sucks. I got it because it has a bad infrared filter so it takes reasonable IR pictures with a 720 nm filter on the lens. It's successors are all better and easier to use.

I think if you separate the craft (how to take pictures) and the art (how to make the pictures good) then modern cameras de-skill the craft. They make it all easier and you can concentrate on the art earlier. That is probably a good thing.

 

[Rodinal]

Yep. I agree.

But even if you just place a deep red filter (Wratten 25) over the lens before taking a picture and convert to B&W in PS you still get a pretty good IR simulation. But still (in my view) not as good as the original IR film from Kodak. Now discontinued since around 2003 ish. Very grainy, but superb subtle tones in the mid ranges and because it has no antihalation layer so creates an almost magical glow to the edges of objects in the image.

 

[Phil V]

I base my life on the standards that I was taught and attempt to adhere to. We all have our differences and for me is the way technology is becoming the great god that rules our lives.

Not jaded?
Have a think about whether there’s other ways of seeing the relationship with technology.

And a think about your reaction to the ‘quality’ of modern images compared to the past. You might have to rethink whether your world view is as open minded as you’d like to believe.

There’s a view of the human relationship with technology that goes something like:

Tech that existed when you were 20 - not even technology, just nature.

Tech that emerged between 20 and 40 - exciting

Tech that emerged between 40 and 60 - probably unnecessary

Tech that emerges >60 - scary.

 

[Phil V]

At night I go to sleep!

So do i
And while I’m asleep my pots get washed and my hybrid vehicle gets a charge.

And when I get better organised*, my laundry will get done.

*recently partially retired and waiting for the ‘better organised’ to kick in.

 

[Erty]

Hmm, glow you say... I'll have to try my Tokina "Special Value" lens on IR.

As far as IR goes, modern cameras with live view or EVFs are awesome. The D100 IR experience was to go back to pre SLR times. Point camera in the direction of the subject, guess distance, adjust lens without the ability to see focus and then review the picture on a tiny screen. It worked on wide angle lenses at f/8+.

A proper modern converted camera is just point, focus and shoot. Mirrorless are best at it because of the offsets that you get with DSLR's separate focus system.

 

[Phil V]

How real is digital tech - or more fully, how real is its media content? To extend the query backwards, how real is an image on film? Is anything virtual real? What is the nature of consciousness? What counts as reality? The query is serious.

I don’t know if you realised but there’s just 2 questions here. And as far as science is concerned they’re very different.

With either film or digital, actual physical photons are captured by a light sensitive surface. A slight divergence in processing, where with film printing the photons are captured again and can be manipulated. And with digital, those 0’s and 1’s can be altered, but they still create a different physical state in the recording.

Re consciousness; I know less about the workings of the mind but it can be argued that nothing is ‘real’ but is subject to our perception of it. That argument falls over somewhat when subjected to scientific theory which proves constants.

 

[woof woof]

I tend not to like theories which depend on our perceptions as things may be which we never perceive or we perceive wrongly. Our correct and accurate perception is surely not required to make something real. It either is or is not real regardless of us. The cat in the box is either alive or dead, it doesn't matter if we open the box or not. There may be a teapot orbiting a distant planet. We can't see it, it may still be there. Some outcomes will be affected by our involvement and observation but I'd argue that in some cases we're looking at skewed or partial understanding and lacking something, like blind men and elephants.

 

[snerkler]

For me it can be as easy or complicated as you want. Not tech savvy or familiar with photography then stick it in Auto or P mode, but if you want to delve deeper you can.